Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2021, 20:05 PMjagd wölfe

OKW is too dependant on Volks, and as the unit got worse the faction 1vs1 viability also got worse. Maybe the best solution isn't replacing volks with bandaid upgrade volks but start tackling the actual issues.

thats exactly what something like mp40 volks allows. right now you WILL get STG volks, always. because its all they got and there is no downside. no reason not to. i would propose something like:
rifle volks- sandbag, flame nade, snare. 2 weapon slots
mp40 volks- smoke nade, HE nade, better RA, close range dps takes up 2 slots
STG volks- could be something new, doctrinal or maybe another bonus for a full tech (say gives 2 STgs like now, but for free to all volks, making both versions better and helping with the scaling issues without having a massive power spike there are a number of potential directions)

If Sturmpioneers struggle with combat tasks (something I consider true, even after the veterancy requirement nerfs), then they should receive proper buffs in their scaling, first of all by frontloading some combat buffs instead of a grenade ability, for example by replacing their stgs with Panzergrenadiers stgs by vet 1, and since OKW infantry AT stock department is so lacking, give Sturms the ability to remove their engineer skills completely to have 2 shrecks

sturms are fantastic tbh. their remain powerful in combat, but require flanking. this is a fine role, especially since they are not intended to remain a frontline combat unit forever, they have engineering shit to do.

Mp40 volks are more viable in late game because the unit gets an extra RA boost and the poor veterancy resonates better with the 5 men mp40 squad than with 2 stg44 and 3 kar98k. Rebalancing the STG upgrade by itself means inevitably leaving the unit veterancy as lacking. It's a wrong process and is going to bring issues in the long term. First we should look at what needs to change to improve the unit in late game, and if it has to be dps bonuses, durability bonuses or reinforce cost reduction. Only after that we could discuss replacing Stgs
a vet rework goes hand in hand with STGs. you cant have a unit that scales like god while also peaking in the time it takes for some players to load into the game. a more focused upgrade (IE, not a
BAR type upgrade that the only consideration is if you have enough munitions) gives a missing dynamic. with an OPTIONAL upgrade (vs the obvious one in game) you can put new abilities as a trade off, as above, you could try something like swapping out the snare for smoke- something OKW sorely lacks, but sionce the trade off is their snare you will want to blend upgraded and non upgraded infantry. improved vet is an absolute must for many okw units, but volks most of all and aghain a big part of their probvlem is that the STG tries to make them rifles lite instead of their own unit with their own army. volks are meant as a holding unit for the more elite elements, not as a core combatant (more like cons than rifles, but still a cross between them both to a degree)

Jump back to quoted post7 May 2021, 03:45 AMthedarkarmadillo

thats exactly what something like mp40 volks allows. right now you WILL get STG volks, always. because its all they got and there is no downside. no reason not to. i would propose something like:
rifle volks- sandbag, flame nade, snare. 2 weapon slots
mp40 volks- smoke nade, HE nade, better RA, close range dps takes up 2 slots
STG volks- could be something new, doctrinal or maybe another bonus for a full tech (say gives 2 STgs like now, but for free to all volks, making both versions better and helping with the scaling issues without having a massive power spike there are a number of potential directions)

Jump back to quoted post7 May 2021, 01:42 AMLMAO

okw needs more nerfs so people only play ostheer

Jump back to quoted post7 May 2021, 06:57 AMKatitof

Given OKW win ratios across all game modes, they most certainly do.

Jump back to quoted post7 May 2021, 05:50 AMjagd wölfe

You seem to be confused
If the map fits it, Mp40 volks are much better than stg volks in late game. Their smoke and grenade alone makes them much better, and when they are vetted their extra RA bonus makes them an actually durable mainline. Not only that but mp40s scale better. The problem is not that mp40s aren't good or stg44 are too good, the problem is that OKW isn't coh Wehrmacht and doesn't have Grenadiers with double mg42 right after volks.
Also what you proposed is for stg44 to have even a bigger powerspike by removing the muni dump

Jump back to quoted post7 May 2021, 12:39 PMJilet

Aren't Obersoldaten literally beefed up Grenadiers ?

Jump back to quoted post7 May 2021, 05:50 AMjagd wölfe

You seem to be confused
If the map fits it, Mp40 volks are much better than stg volks in late game. Their smoke and grenade alone makes them much better, and when they are vetted their extra RA bonus makes them an actually durable mainline. Not only that but mp40s scale better. The problem is not that mp40s aren't good or stg44 are too good, the problem is that OKW isn't coh Wehrmacht and doesn't have Grenadiers with double mg42 right after volks.
Also what you proposed is for stg44 to have even a bigger powerspike by removing the muni dump

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 07:49 AMJPA32

Also, Luftwaffe Ground is already one of the most popular OKW Commanders due to Valiant Assault, Falls, and the smoke recon run and now it's even getting buffed with the Heavy Fortifications change (which imo it really didn't need.)

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 07:49 AMJPA32

I genuinely would consider removing Heavy Fortifications from Luftwaffe Ground and having a three way swap replacing Heavy Fortifications with the 221, replacing the 221 in Elite Armored with the Opel Blitz, and finally replacing the Opel Blitz in Firesturm with Heavy Fortifications.

I could see Firesturm gaining a lot from the ability for Volks to wire off cover and Sturms zoning area with flak emplacements/S-Mines to make MP40 Volks stronger on approach to units in the open or weakened while trading the Opel Blitz pseudo-ambulance won't intrude on the Le.i.g from Battlegroup anymore and it's incendiary Munitions (Which I think need to be buffed vs things that aren't emplacements but digression aside.)

Furthermore, The 221 holds a weird spot in Elite Armored. Generally you want to go Mechanized so you have Heat Puma's since they can punch up into mediums, but the 221 requires you to build an early truck and sit it around until then which just feels awkward if you want to build this. Adding the Opel Blitz is just a natural fit for what this doctrine already wants to do since it provides you with the Ambulance you need to go Mechanized and not waste Munitions spamming medkits.

In one fell swoop we slightly nerf Luftwaffe Ground with the underwhelming 221, while buffing Elite Armored and Firestorm and providing them resources that fit the gameplan of their doctrine while removing the contradictory resources that worked against the doctrines itself.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 08:04 AMjagd wölfe

It did and fortifications is still a meme because the flak doesn't even vet up

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 08:04 AMjagd wölfe

The issue of healing should be solved non doctrinally. OKW teamgames player can rely on Ostheer ultra cheap bunkers as healing but forcing to an 1vs1 a backtech of 35 fuel for healing is one of the many issues that causes imbalance between faction viability in 1vs1 vs teamgames.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 08:04 AMjagd wölfe

On the other hand, Opel Blitz allows to have their cake and eat it too and whatever doctrine will have it will be extremely popular, not on the merits of a good synergy between units and abilities as it should be but because of the one key unit that lets you skip 15 fuel

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 08:04 AMjagd wölfe

Similarly, incendiary munitions doesn't mean that Feuersturm need to "fit" Battlegroup builds. Incendiary munitions was a terrible idea and needs to be bundled with something more than a single secondary ability for an uncommon unit sitting in a specific tier.
Like I proposed for example, an Obersoldaten toxic smoke shell for the Panzer IV similar to the Cromwell smoke shell, since it would extremely benefit OKW Mechanized builds that can't count on leIGs

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 08:04 AMjagd wölfe

I do agree with changing Airborne Assault, and that Luftwaffe doesn't need further buffs, but I'll always say that every single slot must be useful to a certain degree if the commander is reworked

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 10:40 AMVipper

I am under the impression of that "Forced Retreat" from sturm officer is much worse than "Fear Propaganda" from Commisar.

It target a single unit, comes with debuff and cost more (if I remember correctly).

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 09:04 AMJPA32

Doesn't surprise me. Doctrine is basically designed to fail and it has to hold up to Breakthrough in teamgames which is never going to happen.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 09:04 AMJPA32

For what it's worth, I don't think the Opel Blitz is meant to solve OKW healing in 1v1, but to provide some relief to the muni price of medkits and give reason to go mechanized if you're someone more comfortable with Battlegroup. I think it's fine personally, just could use some shuffling around to provide players a gameplan when picking doctrines as previously stated.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 09:04 AMJPA32

Not, necessarily. OKW has significantly more pressing needs than a lategame 15 Fuel boost in a fake ambulance. It's a nice boost for sure but not backbreaking by any means. As discussed in the thread Volks are what need looked at primarily for this faction.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 09:04 AMJPA32

I'm torn on this in particular. On one hand, Incendiary Munitions is an absolutely garbage ability on it's own. But when we start playing lego with every ability in the game it becomes difficult to discern doctrine identity as we start stapling random shit to doctrines outside the scope of what's intended to be changed, or we end up with ridiculous situations like Mechanized having 8 or 9 abilities in a single doctrine because everything comes bundled together. This also runs into the problem of power creep which is an incredibly difficult beast to tackle, especially when there's a very hard limitation on what specifics can be changed. This gets very tricky.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 09:04 AMJPA32

As for a P4 smoke shot. Considering how infuriatingly powerful Panzer Tactician is, I don't think we should be giving P4J fast access to any sort of smoke on their own.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 09:04 AMJPA32

Honestly I would just opt to move the Le.i.g to the HQ truck and limit it in a similar manner to the MG34. Battlegroup already provides your primary source of healing and the Flak Trak which are both powerful tools. I see no reason to limit the Le.i.g there too. Perhaps it's a relic limitation or just something that hasn't been fully considered yet.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 09:04 AMJPA32

I don't actually agree with the notion that every slot needs to be useful, or more specifically, the ability for every slot to be useful. Inherently in any system with multiple options by virtue of there being a limited number of ways you can go about something, or the situational use of abilities, or the things you need to answer, or the skill of the players behind the abilities, etc there are going to be things that are just more or less powerful based upon external or even intentional factors that can't be balanced around reasonably. We only see the face of it and not the dirty work behind it all, sometimes mistakes happen, sometimes things need to be bad to not be oppressive or lock out other options, sometimes the thing that's "bad" just doesn't fit your playstyle or needs. Balance is hard because it's this massive intertwined system that all interacts with itself and every change brings about 100 ripples elsewhere.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 10:41 AMKatitof

Sturm Offizier
The boosts to hostile squads near a unit that has been affected by Forced Retreat is being removed. This better reflects the ability's high cost and will make it easier to use this ability.

Forced Retreat no longer improves the performance of hostile infantry near the retreating squad.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 11:50 AMVipper

That is simply irrelevant to what I have posted.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 11:52 AMKatitof

You have posted about forced retreat.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 11:52 AMKatitof

I have posted in replay about changes to forced retreat.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 11:52 AMKatitof

It couldn't be any more relevant, regardless of your mental gymnastics why it wouldn't be.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 11:52 AMKatitof

Prop arty is:

-delayed
-unreliable
-now comes with flares

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 11:52 AMKatitof

Officers forced retreat is instant. Don't expect such powerful skill to come without any downsides, it already got pretty hefty buff.

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2021, 18:11 PMEtherealDragon

+1 I've even considered making a thread about this. Playing a fair amount of 2v2s I feel like Overwatch is VERY popular largely because of this ability. It's pretty insane that in the patch now you get an additional Anti Infantry strafe for just 25 munitions more compared to Stuka CAS. The end result is an anti-everything strafe that guarantees map control even with AA because there are so many planes than it's impossible to shoot them all down without at least 1 pass ruining your day. It'd probably be more balanced if it worked like Hold the Line or Sector Artillery/Perimeter Overwatch so you can't use it super offensively to get map control or pin someone in their base due to the size of the area of the ability. Otherwise increase the cost to 275~

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 12:13 PMVipper

The ability got buffed and become more reliable.

If there a need for a downside there should also be one for "fear propaganda"

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 14:33 PMEtherealDragon

Well the downside is that the Forced Retreat isn't 100%. Most of the time you use it you're hoping to force some retreats - there is still a chance that you'll get bad RNG and just get other effects or no effect. In those cases it's not too hard for your opponent to just ride out the propaganda.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2021, 14:33 PMEtherealDragon

The Sturm Officer changes were more a lateral move IMO going from buffing opponents infantry to increased Racc on officer. At least now your opponent has to micro and focus fire your officer to get any benefit instead of just getting a free buff for munitions YOU spent. (In that regard I don't know if Officer really needs a penalty given how expensive the ability is)