Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

They were never meant to trade efficiently late game, hence they don't. Obers or one of multiple different doctrinal infantry were always supposed to be supplement to volks. Only times when volks were self reliant were when they were op.

Volks have to draw fire/tie down enemy inf as they where designed to do. Then let obers or whatever elite callin inf is out their deals the damage. Although the only thing that i would change on volks is their self heal to vet 3 and buff recc acc a bit at vet 5.
Accualy beating/bleeding inf isent the job for volks late game. Its obers wich should be made viable for this.

If we buff volks to section rifle level obers become irrelevant and faction play more simaler across the board. Wich imo isent good.

Volksgrenadiers are absolutely lost and hopeless against 7 men cons, the role you decided to attribute them is irrelevant, they are priced for better performances

Volksgrenadiers are absolutely lost and hopeless against 7 men cons, the role you decided to attribute them is irrelevant, they are priced for better performances

And they perform much better up until late game.
They are also NOT a doctrinal unit, you are 1 patch too late to REEE about VGs. The fact of them not being addressed with the patch that was focusing on core army is a testament to how fine and balanced they are, inability to utilize unit properly does not mean the unit is bad.

And they perform much better up until late game.

Which is irrelevant, there's no reason for cons to outperform more expensive mainlines that is also less durable and has less utility

They are also NOT a doctrinal unit,

Neither are 7 men cons, play the damn game

Volks have to draw fire/tie down enemy inf as they where designed to do. Then let obers or whatever elite callin inf is out their deals the damage. Although the only thing that i would change on volks is their self heal to vet 3 and buff recc acc a bit at vet 5.
Accualy beating/bleeding inf isent the job for volks late game. Its obers wich should be made viable for this.

If we buff volks to section rifle level obers become irrelevant and faction play more simaler across the board. Wich imo isent good.

They don't really tie infantry down that well lategame, is the issue. They're stuck between being a "meatshield" and a "Damage-dealer" infantry unit, due to having been handed the STG upgrade at one point in balance, and being expected to be a (very temporary) shock infantry. Their veterancy is weak, which makes their survivability (and so their efficiency) fairly garbage lategame relative to other units, but their STGs do not scale well either, having a spike when they're upgraded, and steeply dropping down from there.

I've suggested multiple times that Volks ought to lean far more heavily into the "tarpit" design, losing their STG upgrades (and therefore their powerspike) in exchange for slightly improved (defensive, primarily) veterancy, and a "mobilise reserves" styled upgrade.

Obers/JLI/Fallschirmjager (and to a lesser extent, mostly in the early game; Sturms) are obviously the infantry that should be doing the damage for OKW, Volks shouldnt have their damage output buffed, certainly not in the lategame, but what they /should/ be is a more utilitarian meatshield, in the same design space as Conscripts.

Neither are 7 men cons, play the damn game

No, they are not, they also were addressed in non commander focused patches.

Again, you are 1 patch too late for that. Stock units are NOT being changed, that ship has sailed.
Cope.

And they perform much better up until late game.
They are also NOT a doctrinal unit, you are 1 patch too late to REEE about VGs. The fact of them not being addressed with the patch that was focusing on core army is a testament to how fine and balanced they are, inability to utilize unit properly does not mean the unit is bad.

Do you consider, say, UKF to be a well designed/balanced faction after both the previous, and this patch? Sections must presumably be fine, as they weren't too heavily tweaked in the last patch, and weren't touched in this commander patch.

They even /lost/ the only doctrinal mortar they had, so it seems like they definitely don't need mobile indirect.

No, they are not, they also were addressed in non commander focused patches.

Again, you are 1 patch too late for that. Stock units are NOT being changed, that ship has sailed.
Cope.

This is very childish, you and I both know you don't think the balance team is infallible. If you think Volksgrenadiers/OKW are fine as they are, then that's perfectly OK, you're entitled to your opinion. Don't pretend to hide behind the Balance Team's decisions though, and try to actually argue your case on its own merits.

They don't really tie infantry down that well lategame, is the issue. They're stuck between being a "meatshield" and a "Damage-dealer" infantry unit, due to having been handed the STG upgrade at one point in balance, and being expected to be a (very temporary) shock infantry. Their veterancy is weak, which makes their survivability (and so their efficiency) fairly garbage lategame relative to other units, but their STGs do not scale well either, having a spike when they're upgraded, and steeply dropping down from there.

I've suggested multiple times that Volks ought to lean far more heavily into the "tarpit" design, losing their STG upgrades (and therefore their powerspike) in exchange for slightly improved (defensive, primarily) veterancy, and a "mobilise reserves" styled upgrade.

Obers/JLI/Fallschirmjager (and to a lesser extent, mostly in the early game; Sturms) are obviously the infantry that should be doing the damage for OKW, Volks shouldnt have their damage output buffed, certainly not in the lategame, but what they /should/ be is a more utilitarian meatshield, in the same design space as Conscripts.

I think we could do that with Pfussies. The current power creep balance with buffing them on Volks lvl early on is the wrong direction. If they are both equally good early on and Pfussies scale better, there is no decision anymore. Everybody will go for Pfussies instead of Volks. Lower their cost+reinforcement, buff their ra a little bit and remove 2 g43s or the whole upgrade. Low dmg, good utility and high effective hp pool.

I think we could do that with Pfussies. The current power creep balance with buffing them on Volks lvl early on is the wrong direction. If they are both equally good early on and Pfussies scale better, there is no decision anymore. Everybody will go for Pfussies instead of Volks. Lower their cost+reinforcement, buff their ra a little bit and remove 2 g43s or the whole upgrade. Low dmg, good utility and high effective hp pool.

The fact that Fusies and Volksgrenadiers are so similar is why there's this power creep going on, I think. They're the same type of infantry (Close/close-medium range) with broadly similar abilities. One or the other needs their identity changing, and I really do think it should be Volksgrenadiers. "Scaling" shouldn't be the major thing that differentiates them. Fusiliers should lose the sixth man from their G43 upgrade, and have their statistics rebalanced accordingly, and Volksgrenadiers should instead receive a sixth man/ra bonus/reinforcement discount through a "Mobilise" upgrade. Fusiliers gaining a sixth man doesn't seem to have any really logical justification.

-I would like to say that the more this pzfusilier change is thought about in my mind, the less sense it makes. Most of what I would say has already been brought up by others. I do think it was an unnecessary change to a unit that was working fine overall.


-CB replacement - not a fan of, but at this point I think it's a done change. The new Overwatch replacement for it is alright in testing I suppose? Gun fires two shots quickly and then there's a gap of time before the next rounds. I was playing around with it last night and it became very obvious certain potential interactions:

1. Overwatch point flares and then the gun targets the area, revealed and then quickly the gun stops because the territory has been decapped (if I understood it correctly). (Gun will still fire very shortly after a decap, if it's been queued to beforehand, which is working fine). Regular barrage is still superior as it results in kills if a close/direct shot and benefits from higher accuracy due to sight.
2. No sight except normal point sight, in which case the gun doesn't work at all as you can park a squad on the edge of the VP and its low rate of fire means that FoW dmg-reveals fade out. Regular barrage cannot be defeated by lack of sight.
3.Bunkerfest matchups where everything frontline is revealed and the player now has discount Sector Artillery pretty much on call (is this a good thing?)

Of course, this is all good and well and assumes that the gun hasn't been vaporised by the usual counters.


-Sturmtiger change - overdue years ago but nice to finally have it thank you.


-I think adding FTF to an already extremely heavy defensive doc is a bit overkill as well. Between bunkers, S-mines and Ober-durability volks (Goddess help you against Obers with it on), this screams future trouble to me.

-Rest of the changes look to be in the right direction, good job.

No, they are not, they also were addressed in non commander focused patches.

Again, you are 1 patch too late for that. Stock units are NOT being changed, that ship has sailed.
Cope.

This wouldn't be the first commander patch that specifically addressed certain non doctrinal units, don't worry about it

This wouldn't be the first commander patch that specifically addressed certain non doctrinal units, don't worry about it

Except, volks aren't exactly overpowered meta units that need to be dealt with asap anymore.

If there are to be any changes to PanzerFusiliers I would rather see then moving away from what they are currently. This change is just moving them more towards being a better scaling Volks.
I would much rather see changes that move them into their own use. I want them to compliment volks not just outright replace them. If they are meant to replace volks then they should at least be unique in doing that rather than just replacing them.

Maybe you could do something like make them a 6 man squad, remove their upgrades (maybe replace them with an upgrade locked behind tech?), and make them a more defensive line infantry. A large squad that comes ready with a snare would be an excellent compliment unit to Volks in the early game to help control LVs and hold ground but lack a power spike like the volks with their STGs.

Except, volks aren't exactly overpowered meta units that need to be dealt with asap anymore.

There will be more patches in the future.

There will be more patches in the future.

We are at the point, where we should treat each and every patch as the last one.

Can someone consider buffing anti ULV capability of 221/3? At its price point and timing, it cant compete with an upgraded UC. Maybe we can start from a small add penetration buff for 223 upgrade, giving it a chance to stand against UC. This won't effect its ability to fight armored light vehicles.

Can someone consider buffing anti ULV capability of 221/3? At its price point and timing, it cant compete with an upgraded UC. Maybe we can start from a small add penetration buff for 223 upgrade, giving it a chance to stand against UC. This won't effect its ability to fight armored light vehicles.

It has a turret.
UC does not.
221/3 cost also doesn't reflect its combat capability, but utility it provides.
It also isn't meant to fight any vehicles at all, but infantry.

If anything a slight cost decrease in the 221 would be nice to see so the timing is slightly better. -5 fuel or something like that would be a nice buff to it.

Except, volks aren't exactly overpowered meta units that need to be dealt with asap anymore.

Way to reference six years ago again

221 pre radio upgrade don't deserve a fuel cost at all. There's much better alternatives that cost no fuel.
It doesn't have panzer tactician, can't carry squads, its dps is poor compared to other halftrack mg, and doesn't carry any muni dps upgrade
No way in hell the UC doesn't cost fuel but it does