Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

Jump back to quoted post22 May 2021, 15:55 PMMr Carmine

Pip is correct in that in general you cant account tech cost to unit cost. As each tech has different subjective value between unlocking upgrades abilities and units.

However the exception here imo is that with molly and at nade tech no other units benifits from this and no other units can be unlocked with this. It only and soley benefits conscripts. It used to be even more expensive and seperated.

Only in this case it can be added to unit cost. 4 cons is meta 3 is close to being meta. Divide to cost by 4 and add up, then put in the 50 muni and 18mp for each 7th man and we have quite an if not the most expensive but fantastic main line squad in the late game.

Jump back to quoted post22 May 2021, 16:34 PMPip

I'm not sure about even that, honestly. I'd still consider the Molly/AT grenades to be general teching, and their price should be added to the Soviets' "Total tech costs" to reach certain tiers/units, rather than being considered part of an unit's cost (Even if it does affect only a certain squad)

My understanding is that these allied techs are pared out from the regular tech costs in order to make allied teching more "flexible". I.E; You're supposed to be able to get Molly/AT earlier than OST/OKW can get their grenade + snare (As they require BP1/a tech truck to be built, respectively) OR skip that tech in order to be able to reach your T70 or medium tank more quickly.


To this end: Molly/AT + tier 3 should cost slightly more than OST BP1 and tier 2 (To account for the flexibility afforded by them being split), but going for tier 3 without Molly/AT should be discounted when compared to BP1/tier 2. (Assuming everything else is equal, of course. Raw MP/MU/FU pricing for things can be a little misleading sometimes)

How do the numbers work out at the moment, actually? I haven't looked at tech costs in a while. (Ignore healing for either faction for now)

I hope that, even if you still disagree, you understand why I (And to my knowledge; The Balans Teem) consider this the case.


EDIT: As a last thing: honestly, even if you might consider these techs part of Conscripts' cost: I do think they're the best/most cost-effective mainline squad in the game.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 20:40 PMPip

Other than Conscripts, who are 257mp + 50mu. Volks are slightly cheaper, but are worse. Rifles and Sections do cost more when fully upgraded though, of course.

Not that I'm saying that VSL Grens should beat all other mainlines, but they obviously aren't the cheapest infantry.

Jump back to quoted post22 May 2021, 15:55 PMMr Carmine

However the exception here imo is that with molly and at nade tech no other units benifits from this and no other units can be unlocked with this. It only and soley benefits conscripts. It used to be even more expensive and seperated.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 10:16 AMleithianz

Almost all upgrades are like that. USF nades are only for the rifles, all elite commander inf. has nades anyway. volster/nades for UKF are as well(IS only). Only exception here is probably the weapon unlock for USF.

Jump back to quoted post22 May 2021, 22:39 PMLewka

Agreed. For one the upgrade isn't cheap and grenadiers are not the cheapest squads to reinforce. It is being argued heavily that lmg42 grens are still the most viable choice of upgrades. I think VSL grens being able to place sandbags might be a good option for them to help them maintain that 'staying power' that they need as a 5 man mainline squad. Otherwise why wait for 2 CP to upgrade to VSL when you can just reach BP1 and use LMG42s which are better and you can even use them sooner?

I mean personally what I like about German Infantry Doctrine is the upgrade for Panzergren and using them alongside Grens with their smoke and mark target, but otherwise I think the doctrine is now lacking and a lot of its abilities are better off chosen from other commanders which give you more. The point of the German Infantry Doctrine (IMO) is to have more staying power with your mainlines and providing your infantry with support they need to do it

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 14:39 PMFunPolice

I mean doesn't 5 man grens help with the staying power a good amount? Like you don't get the DPS boost from the MG42 but with 5 men it's harder to lose grens and they have more health to stay in the fight.
Tbh I don't really get all these calls to buff VSL again. Like we just got out of them being the dominating meta with the last patch and they are still a pretty common 1v1 commander. Do we really need to buff them and risk making them the meta again?

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 14:39 PMFunPolice

I mean doesn't 5 man grens help with the staying power a good amount? Like you don't get the DPS boost from the MG42 but with 5 men it's harder to lose grens and they have more health to stay in the fight.
Tbh I don't really get all these calls to buff VSL again. Like we just got out of them being the dominating meta with the last patch and they are still a pretty common 1v1 commander. Do we really need to buff them and risk making them the meta again?

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 10:16 AMleithianz

Almost all upgrades are like that. USF nades are only for the rifles, all elite commander inf. has nades anyway. volster/nades for UKF are as well(IS only). Only exception here is probably the weapon unlock for USF.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 14:39 PMFunPolice

I mean doesn't 5 man grens help with the staying power a good amount? Like you don't get the DPS boost from the MG42 but with 5 men it's harder to lose grens and they have more health to stay in the fight.
Tbh I don't really get all these calls to buff VSL again. Like we just got out of them being the dominating meta with the last patch and they are still a pretty common 1v1 commander. Do we really need to buff them and risk making them the meta again?

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 21:23 PMSgt.BigHead

VSL Grenadiers 5 men redundant , Giving them slight target size or RA bonus plus couple of minor utilities (fast cap, diverse .etc..)tied to veterancy more logical.
Name is "veteran squad leader" it has to have vet leader.
Or
VSL Upgrade gives;
one sniper model to squad as a leader with LMG 34 or 42
buffing squads weapon aim time ,Rate of fire or LMG Burst buff
With RA Bonus But expensive Reinforcement cost and time (semi Obers)...

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 23:25 PMLewka

While I agree, I think VSL grens could use some tuning to remain competitive, I think those buffs are a little too much. Also they already receive a ROF improvement upon upgrading
___
ROF Buff comes from that extra model It feels lmg grens
have better ROF But no idea about how the check proper stat list of units besides sereaila's site.

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 00:48 AMJilet

Would much rather the PGrens to come with Tier 2 and wreck infantry like it did back then rather than the current iteration where it literally comes 2 minutes into the game smashes everything for the 2 minutes of its arrival and is meh compared to other elite infantry for the rest of the game.

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 06:25 AMSgt.BigHead

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 23:25 PMLewka

While I agree, I think VSL grens could use some tuning to remain competitive, I think those buffs are a little too much. Also they already receive a ROF improvement upon upgrading
___
ROF Buff comes from that extra model It feels lmg grens
have better ROF But no idea about how the check proper stat list of units besides sereaila's site.

___________
Oh I see. I was just basing it off the tooltip that claims that the upgrade improves the squad's ROF. However, I know a good number of the game's tooltips are no longer accurate and need to be updated. I wouldn't mind seeing some stats on VSL upgrade's ROF compared to lmg42 gren's upgraded squad if the squad's ROF is changed at all besides the obvious one, with the soldier carrying the lmg.

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 00:48 AMJilet

Would much rather the PGrens to come with Tier 2 and wreck infantry like it did back then rather than the current iteration where it literally comes 2 minutes into the game smashes everything for the 2 minutes of its arrival and is meh compared to other elite infantry for the rest of the game.

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 06:33 AMLewka

Yeah times have certainly changed. I think in certain situations Panzergren are quite good at replacing infantry losses from other squad wipes

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 06:25 AMSgt.BigHead

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 23:25 PMLewka

While I agree, I think VSL grens could use some tuning to remain competitive, I think those buffs are a little too much. Also they already receive a ROF improvement upon upgrading
___
ROF Buff comes from that extra model It feels lmg grens
have better ROF But no idea about how the check proper stat list of units besides sereaila's site.

Oh I see. I was just basing it off the tooltip that claims that the upgrade improves the squad's ROF. However, I know a good number of the game's tooltips are no longer accurate and need to be updated. I wouldn't mind seeing some stats on VSL upgrade's ROF compared to lmg42 gren's upgraded squad if the squad's ROF is changed at all besides the obvious one, with the soldier carrying the lmg.

Same here , Dunno why there is no unit stat specs around Coh2 Site or etc. In regards Of LMG Pgrens ; For 80 Mun upgrade at T3 They can get LMG 34's Non doctrinal , It could be interesting and will be alternate and more durable Grens for late game... But All this ideas are not proper way to balance Ostheer unfortunately. Only literally major adjustment needs USF ,OKW ,UKF factions which brokes the game to the zion.

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 00:48 AMJilet

Would much rather the PGrens to come with Tier 2 and wreck infantry like it did back then rather than the current iteration where it literally comes 2 minutes into the game smashes everything for the 2 minutes of its arrival and is meh compared to other elite infantry for the rest of the game.

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 06:47 AMZeroZeroNi

But PG's hasn't been nerfed though. They are the same as they were when they used to come at T2. the only thing thats changed is that their bundle nade range bonus from vet was changed to nade cooldown buff.

Jump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 06:33 AMLewka

Oh I see. I was just basing it off the tooltip that claims that the upgrade improves the squad's ROF. However, I know a good number of the game's tooltips are no longer accurate and need to be updated. I wouldn't mind seeing some stats on VSL upgrade's ROF compared to lmg42 gren's upgraded squad if the squad's ROF is changed at all besides the obvious one, with the soldier carrying the lmg.