Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

G43 on Grens still suck balls honestly. Especially with new buffed PPSH for cons.

I mean, balance team either need to just keep G43 only on PGs because they are good on them and give grens different upgrade instead of G43 or stop being afraid of making G43 strong combat wise on grens.

Its funny to see how vet3 G43 grens are loosing to 1 bar vet3 rifles and almost losing to bolstered tommies (without guns), while vet 3 PPSH cons are able to beat vet 2 Obersts.

I think part of it is that the G43 upgrade, while being geared mostly for close-range, is still a fairly "universal" upgrade, in that the squad still has effectiveness at all ranges. Riflemen already have that same design, and due to being more expensive, will pretty much strictly be better than G43 Grens.

In comparison; the PPSH upgrade is strictly a close-range package (and Obers are a long-range focused squad), so PPSH cons being able to beat a "better" squad by taking advantage of their preferred range is fairly logical.

I agree that Gren G43s kind of just need scrapping, and a different design for that upgrade be considered. Honestly; a suggestion someone made that they could become a Light Infantry squad with a single JLI G43 (Or a weaker version, with a lower crit HP%) is possibly worth considering, though I don't know the balance implications of having both a Light Infantry squad and a Sniper. (I'd argue that all factions should have both, or one or the other nondoctrinally, however.)

If you think the new G43 Grens are bad I don't know what to tell you.

If you think the new G43 Grens are bad I don't know what to tell you.

What's particularly great about them, and why wouldn't you just use G43 Pgrens instead?

The only thing Grens really have going for them there is the Faust, and whether that's worth using otherwise strictly inferior infantry is i suppose a bit hard to decide.

What's particularly great about them, and why wouldn't you just use G43 Pgrens instead?

The only thing Grens really have going for them there is the Faust, and whether that's worth using otherwise strictly inferior infantry is i suppose a bit hard to decide.

And.... why would you expect cheaper squad to perform on pair or better then more expensive squad...?
New upgrade is worth the price and perform accordingly to units cost and upgrades timing.

If you were honestly expecting PG G43 performance, then I want contact to your dealer, he seems to have some great stuff for sale.

And.... why would you expect cheaper squad to perform on pair or better then more expensive squad...?
New upgrade is worth the price and perform accordingly to units cost and upgrades timing.

If you were honestly expecting PG G43 performance, then I want contact to your dealer, he seems to have some great stuff for sale.

I have no clue why that's the conclusion you came to, please read the post again.

I'm stating that G43 Pgrens perform the same role that G43 Grens are supposed to fill, and do it significantly better, while coming in the same commander (Due to being the same upgrade) and so there is little reason to use G43 Grenadiers, when you could instead use G43 Pgrens.

There was no mention of G43 Grenadiers needing to perform as well, or better than G43 PanzerGrenadiers, nor an expectation that they would. Please don't assign an opinion to me that doesn't exist.

What's particularly great about them, and why wouldn't you just use G43 Pgrens instead?

The only thing Grens really have going for them there is the Faust, and whether that's worth using otherwise strictly inferior infantry is i suppose a bit hard to decide.

Because you can't get enough Pgrens to just outright replace your mainline infantry. The issue with G43 Grens before was that they scaled poorly into the lategame, and would bleed you dry because they had to close the distance, meaning they were not just useless, they were actively harming you.

This is no longer the case. They are viable throughout all phases of the game, especially if supported by G43 Pgrens.

Because you can't get enough Pgrens to just outright replace your mainline infantry. The issue with G43 Grens before was that they scaled poorly into the lategame, and would bleed you dry because they had to close the distance, meaning they were not just useless, they were actively harming you.

This is no longer the case. They are viable throughout all phases of the game, especially if supported by G43 Pgrens.

Pioneer/MG42 stalls into Pgrens aren't terribly uncommon, I'm not sure if its fair to say you can't just use Pgrens as your "mainline" infantry. Pgrens even have the benefit of not even necessarily needing to close the distance, at max range their G43 performance is really rather good.

I'm still not really convinced they're all that worth using, but i suppose I'll see how they look in upcoming tournaments/high level replays.

I think part of it is that the G43 upgrade, while being geared mostly for close-range, is still a fairly "universal" upgrade, in that the squad still has effectiveness at all ranges. Riflemen already have that same design, and due to being more expensive, will pretty much strictly be better than G43 Grens.

Its a universal upgrade, which you realistically want only on maps which wont allow you to use LMGs to great effect + G43 cost was 45 muni. Now its a 60 muni, and you still cant win against Rifles and you still properly win against Tommies. On top of that in late game your G43s grens will be infirrior to pretty much any other mainline, even Reserves cons will give you nasty bleeding.

In comparison; the PPSH upgrade is strictly a close-range package (and Obers are a long-range focused squad), so PPSH cons being able to beat a "better" squad by taking advantage of their preferred range is fairly logical.

Thing is, cons are already close to mid range inf. Like sure, they lose some long range DPS, but in a real scenrario who are they supposed to fight at long range? They ideally only want to keep range against CQC inf like PGs\SPs\Ass.grens. Other then that, you always want to be as close as possible with them. Not to mention that they are even beating un-upgraded Ass.grens with PPSH now.

Point is PPSH is direct improvement, for the range cons are best used on.

I agree that Gren G43s kind of just need scrapping, and a different design for that upgrade be considered. Honestly; a suggestion someone made that they could become a Light Infantry squad with a single JLI G43 (Or a weaker version, with a lower crit HP%) is possibly worth considering, though I don't know the balance implications of having both a Light Infantry squad and a Sniper. (I'd argue that all factions should have both, or one or the other nondoctrinally, however.)

Not sure about JLI like G43, but over-all G43 need to affect 2 things in order to have reason to exist:
1) Improvement for long-mid range, where grens already shine
2) Giving mobility to not overlap with MG43. But this is already the case.

They dont need to have an upgrade which makes them into second volksgrenadiers, decent at everything but good at nothing.

Because you can't get enough Pgrens to just outright replace your mainline infantry.

And you dont need to replace your mainline with them. Even 2 G43 PGs are giving huge AI boost to your army. They simply dont care what they are fighing, as long as they are in cover. They might not win against every single inf, but they will bite the ass off of pretty much everything in prossess.

The issue with G43 Grens before was that they scaled poorly into the lategame, and would bleed you dry because they had to close the distance, meaning they were not just useless, they were actively harming you.

This is no longer the case. They are viable throughout all phases of the game, especially if supported by G43 Pgrens.

Sorry what the difference ? How -10 rec acc. makes them viable? What the point of closing distance with the squads you cant beat anyway? How this helps with scaling, if they still lose close\mid range engagements to upgraded rifles\tommies and will bleed to reserves cons.

Wait so the Hull Down is going to be left like that for fixed gun vehicles like the StuG, Stupa and Elefant?

No lockdown with cloak or something instead to better fit their roles?

Gods have mercy on the rest of the QoL in the patch then.

Still need to do something about Jaeger Armor. The meta is not going to change at all if you don't do something about that AT strafe. Blows my mind that this change made it into the game

Would giving the ISU commanders the Il2 rocket run from airborne be a good idea? No it would horrible for balance, even if t34s didn't have ram

ISU/Ele give you the ability to attack vehicles from a greater range than almost everything else in the game, why the fuck would they need an anti-tank attack run? It's ridiculous

I hope something can be done with some of the more lackluster commanders like CAS and Assault Support. They have fallen behind other commanders that share the appeal of them (CAS feels much worse than Luftwaffe Supply and Assault Support is larger outclassed by Spearhead). Also remove the AT strafe from Jaeger Armor it's way to good still.

Removal of spotting scopes on ele was a very long overdue and welcomed change.

Good change on command P4 smoke cheese.

And.... why would you expect cheaper squad to perform on pair or better then more expensive squad...?
New upgrade is worth the price and perform accordingly to units cost and upgrades timing.

If you were honestly expecting PG G43 performance, then I want contact to your dealer, he seems to have some great stuff for sale.

Aha... You did see from Tightropes video that 230(210+20) mp +45 muni partisan's can charge straight into a240,p +60 mu gren in heavy cover and win. I don't know about you but price and performance seems rather inconsistent in this game. So you argument is outta whack.

Still need to do something about Jaeger Armor. The meta is not going to change at all if you don't do something about that AT strafe. Blows my mind that this change made it into the game

Would giving the ISU commanders the Il2 rocket run from airborne be a good idea? No it would horrible for balance, even if t34s didn't have ram

ISU/Ele give you the ability to attack vehicles from a greater range than almost everything else in the game, why the fuck would they need an anti-tank attack run? It's ridiculous

I'm gonna tell you something that will blow your mind. That doc will always be META so as long there is the Elephant in there. The moment you remove it won't be anymore.

I'm gonna tell you something that will blow your mind. That doc will always be META so as long there is the Elephant in there. The moment you remove it won't be anymore.

I'm gonna blow your mind, there's another elefant commander and it's not dominating the meta. Sooo, try again

I'm gonna blow your mind, there's another elefant commander and it's not dominating the meta. Sooo, try again

I mean, i think that's partially just because Jaeger Armour is pretty much just a better version of that commander. If both commanders were equally good, I'd say they'd possibly both dominate the meta.

I mean, i think that's partially just because Jaeger Armour is pretty much just a better version of that commander. If both commanders were equally good, I'd say they'd possibly both dominate the meta.

My point exactly though. They both have the elefant and yet one of the commanders is much much stronger. Meaning the elefant clearly isn't the only thing good about it

Similarly imo mark target was the bigger problem on ISU commander. Merchanized support is way more popular than Shock motor. Both have ISU, both had IL2 bomb prior to last patch. I think guards also pair much better with ISU, help protect it from dives

My point exactly though. They both have the elefant and yet one of the commanders is much much stronger. Meaning the elefant clearly isn't the only thing good about it

I dunno, the Elefant is absolutely the defining aspect of the doctrines, but that doesn't mean the other parts of it are irrelevant.

The Elefant could come practically by itself in a doc, and if that were the only way to get the Elefant, it would still probably be a meta doc.

You're both right, but you're not really arguing the same point. Jaeger Armour is meta because of the Elefant. If it did not have the Elefant then it would not be meta, the other Elefant Doc would be instead.

The Elefant is the reason they're meta, but the other abilities within the doctrine are why Jaeger is picked over the alternative.

You're both right, but you're not really arguing the same point. Jaeger Armour is meta because of the Elefant. If it did not have the Elefant then it would not be meta, the other Elefant Doc would be instead.

You're not really arguing the same point as me either. This doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm saying, cause you haven't even mentioned the AT strafe. Which is my only point here

I didn't say it would be meta without the elefant. I said the elefant isn't the only good thing about the commander. And that the strafe needs to be removed. Not sure what your point is