Commander Update Beta 2021 - British Feedback

Land matress is pretty bad, but it is the only rocket arty UKF has. If you want to improve your rocket arty game, just build land matress. It requires really good setup and enemy movement anticipation from you, otherwise it is a wast of popcap and resources.

Land Mattress:
* Cost reduced to 280 and 8 pop. (Was 350 and 10 pop)
* Revert the setup/teardown times back to 3
I personally think you guys are being awfully hard on the unit. Its done its job for me when I used it of wiping setup teams and squads on points. No, it can't really handle moving blobs, but it breaks defensive positions well which is what I normally struggle to deal with as Brits. Once you get two, you throw a lot of big barrages downrange, and the wipes start adding up. A cost reduction will help you get the pair of them up and the reduced pop cap would help make it easier to fit them in a max army.

Designate Command Vehicle:
It really just needs a rewrite. As is it just feels completely backwards to use. Its in a faction (and docs) with some incredibly tough units, but the proper way to use it is to put it on the lightest vehicle you own. Take away some of the crazy buffs, and reduce the debuffs in exchange. Tank firepower is just too valuable to diminish, no matter how good the buffs are.

Vanguard Operations Glider:
* Can now build the 81mm Mortar
Brits need as much mobile indirect as they can lay their hands on. If they can't get it through the stock faction, then it needs to be in as many doctrines as possible with the exception of Improved Fortifications.

Commando Glider:
* Can now build the 81mm Mortar
With the new ability of Gliders to build Commandos, I think its worth investigating putting some indirect into Commando Regiment. The doc only unlocks a single unit, while everything else is a munitions sink of varying quality.

Air Resupply Operation:
Can this just drop Vickers and AT Rifles instead of Medcrates? The medkits feel really awkward.

M3 Halftrack:
Likewise, I think it might make for some interesting choices if the M3 dropped AT Rifles rather than PIATs.

Concentration Barrage:
I'm usually pretty critical of these expensive area denial tools, and Concentration Barrage is no exception. The AOE on it does feel larger than the Railway or 240mm, but I'd have to check the hard stats to be sure. Its still really expensive for what it does though.

Further ideas for Commander changes:

VANGUARD OPERATIONS:
* Valentine Light Tank
* Logistics Glider (with added Mortar)
* Vehicle Repair
* Crocodile Churchill
* Hawker Overflight

I've been pretty vocal about my dislike of the vehicle/fast cap abilities, and Raid Operation is no exception. The Valentine would love to see the light of day in another doc, and with the added Mortar would make it a complete doc for Brits.

SPECIAL WEAPONS REGIMENT:
* Tank Hunters
* Resupply Half Track
* Concentrated Fire Operation
* Land Mattress
* Crocodile

Hold the Line and Concentrated Fire Operation together always felt weird. Even with the reduced cost on Hold the Line, you have two huge munitions sinks in a single doc. With Hold the Line moving to Improved Fortifications, it makes sense to drop it from Special Weapons and give it a tool it actually has a chance to use. The combination of the Land Mattress and Crocodile should give this company excellent breakthrough capabilities in the late game.

MOBILE ASSAULT:
* Recovery Engineers
* Smoke Raid
* Infiltration Commandos
* Land Mattress
* Vehicle Crew Repair

I think the Mortar + Land Mattress is probably overkill here. Smoke Raid plays into the theme of a Mobile British force well and helps overcome the poor quality of British Smoke. An alternative munitions sink could likewise work here as well.

ROYAL ENGINEER:
* Recovery Engineers
* Designate Command Vehicle
* Defensive Operations
* Anti Building Mortar Barrage
* AVRE

I'd really like to put the Land Mattress here, but I'm not sure if the balance team would go for 3 docs with it. The improved Defensive Operations is a decent alternative for an Engineering Company, which should excel at things like constructing fortifications and laying mines.

Summary:
In total, these changes would give some form of mobile indirect to every doctrine except Advanced Emplacement and Royal Engineers. (And even RE I'd love to see get some)

4 Doctrines would have access to a Mortar, although everyone but Lend/Lease is going to have to do some side teching to get it. (possibly too much) 2 Doctrines would now have the Land Mattress, and Royal Artillery would have the Sexton.

Finally, the changes would help balance out some of the awkward munitions costs in most Docs, although Commando remains largely untouched with a full 4 abilities.

Land Mattress:
* Cost reduced to 280 and 8 pop. (Was 350 and 10 pop)
* Revert the setup/teardown times back to 3
I personally think you guys are being awfully hard on the unit. Its done its job for me when I used it of wiping setup teams and squads on points. No, it can't really handle moving blobs, but it breaks defensive positions well which is what I normally struggle to deal with as Brits. Once you get two, you throw a lot of big barrages downrange, and the wipes start adding up. A cost reduction will help you get the pair of them up and the reduced pop cap would help make it easier to fit them in a max army.

Designate Command Vehicle:
It really just needs a rewrite. As is it just feels completely backwards to use. Its in a faction (and docs) with some incredibly tough units, but the proper way to use it is to put it on the lightest vehicle you own. Take away some of the crazy buffs, and reduce the debuffs in exchange. Tank firepower is just too valuable to diminish, no matter how good the buffs are.

Vanguard Operations Glider:
* Can now build the 81mm Mortar
Brits need as much mobile indirect as they can lay their hands on. If they can't get it through the stock faction, then it needs to be in as many doctrines as possible with the exception of Improved Fortifications.

Commando Glider:
* Can now build the 81mm Mortar
With the new ability of Gliders to build Commandos, I think its worth investigating putting some indirect into Commando Regiment. The doc only unlocks a single unit, while everything else is a munitions sink of varying quality.

Air Resupply Operation:
Can this just drop Vickers and AT Rifles instead of Medcrates? The medkits feel really awkward.

M3 Halftrack:
Likewise, I think it might make for some interesting choices if the M3 dropped AT Rifles rather than PIATs.

Concentration Barrage:
I'm usually pretty critical of these expensive area denial tools, and Concentration Barrage is no exception. The AOE on it does feel larger than the Railway or 240mm, but I'd have to check the hard stats to be sure. Its still really expensive for what it does though.

Further ideas for Commander changes:

VANGUARD OPERATIONS:
* Valentine Light Tank
* Logistics Glider (with added Mortar)
* Vehicle Repair
* Crocodile Churchill
* Hawker Overflight

I've been pretty vocal about my dislike of the vehicle/fast cap abilities, and Raid Operation is no exception. The Valentine would love to see the light of day in another doc, and with the added Mortar would make it a complete doc for Brits.

SPECIAL WEAPONS REGIMENT:
* Tank Hunters
* Resupply Half Track
* Concentrated Fire Operation
* Land Mattress
* Crocodile

Hold the Line and Concentrated Fire Operation together always felt weird. Even with the reduced cost on Hold the Line, you have two huge munitions sinks in a single doc. With Hold the Line moving to Improved Fortifications, it makes sense to drop it from Special Weapons and give it a tool it actually has a chance to use. The combination of the Land Mattress and Crocodile should give this company excellent breakthrough capabilities in the late game.

MOBILE ASSAULT:
* Recovery Engineers
* Smoke Raid
* Infiltration Commandos
* Land Mattress
* Vehicle Crew Repair

I think the Mortar + Land Mattress is probably overkill here. Smoke Raid plays into the theme of a Mobile British force well and helps overcome the poor quality of British Smoke. An alternative munitions sink could likewise work here as well.

ROYAL ENGINEER:
* Recovery Engineers
* Designate Command Vehicle
* Defensive Operations
* Anti Building Mortar Barrage
* AVRE

I'd really like to put the Land Mattress here, but I'm not sure if the balance team would go for 3 docs with it. The improved Defensive Operations is a decent alternative for an Engineering Company, which should excel at things like constructing fortifications and laying mines.

Summary:
In total, these changes would give some form of mobile indirect to every doctrine except Advanced Emplacement and Royal Engineers. (And even RE I'd love to see get some)

4 Doctrines would have access to a Mortar, although everyone but Lend/Lease is going to have to do some side teching to get it. (possibly too much) 2 Doctrines would now have the Land Mattress, and Royal Artillery would have the Sexton.

Finally, the changes would help balance out some of the awkward munitions costs in most Docs, although Commando remains largely untouched with a full 4 abilities.

commando weapon teams would be intresting addition.

Land Mattress:
* Cost reduced to 280 and 8 pop. (Was 350 and 10 pop)
* Revert the setup/teardown times back to 3
I personally think you guys are being awfully hard on the unit. Its done its job for me when I used it of wiping setup teams and squads on points. No, it can't really handle moving blobs, but it breaks defensive positions well which is what I normally struggle to deal with as Brits. Once you get two, you throw a lot of big barrages downrange, and the wipes start adding up. A cost reduction will help you get the pair of them up and the reduced pop cap would help make it easier to fit them in a max army.

Designate Command Vehicle:
It really just needs a rewrite. As is it just feels completely backwards to use. Its in a faction (and docs) with some incredibly tough units, but the proper way to use it is to put it on the lightest vehicle you own. Take away some of the crazy buffs, and reduce the debuffs in exchange. Tank firepower is just too valuable to diminish, no matter how good the buffs are.

Vanguard Operations Glider:
* Can now build the 81mm Mortar
Brits need as much mobile indirect as they can lay their hands on. If they can't get it through the stock faction, then it needs to be in as many doctrines as possible with the exception of Improved Fortifications.

Commando Glider:
* Can now build the 81mm Mortar
With the new ability of Gliders to build Commandos, I think its worth investigating putting some indirect into Commando Regiment. The doc only unlocks a single unit, while everything else is a munitions sink of varying quality.

Air Resupply Operation:
Can this just drop Vickers and AT Rifles instead of Medcrates? The medkits feel really awkward.

M3 Halftrack:
Likewise, I think it might make for some interesting choices if the M3 dropped AT Rifles rather than PIATs.

Concentration Barrage:
I'm usually pretty critical of these expensive area denial tools, and Concentration Barrage is no exception. The AOE on it does feel larger than the Railway or 240mm, but I'd have to check the hard stats to be sure. Its still really expensive for what it does though.

Further ideas for Commander changes:

VANGUARD OPERATIONS:
* Valentine Light Tank
* Logistics Glider (with added Mortar)
* Vehicle Repair
* Crocodile Churchill
* Hawker Overflight

I've been pretty vocal about my dislike of the vehicle/fast cap abilities, and Raid Operation is no exception. The Valentine would love to see the light of day in another doc, and with the added Mortar would make it a complete doc for Brits.

SPECIAL WEAPONS REGIMENT:
* Tank Hunters
* Resupply Half Track
* Concentrated Fire Operation
* Land Mattress
* Crocodile

Hold the Line and Concentrated Fire Operation together always felt weird. Even with the reduced cost on Hold the Line, you have two huge munitions sinks in a single doc. With Hold the Line moving to Improved Fortifications, it makes sense to drop it from Special Weapons and give it a tool it actually has a chance to use. The combination of the Land Mattress and Crocodile should give this company excellent breakthrough capabilities in the late game.

MOBILE ASSAULT:
* Recovery Engineers
* Smoke Raid
* Infiltration Commandos
* Land Mattress
* Vehicle Crew Repair

I think the Mortar + Land Mattress is probably overkill here. Smoke Raid plays into the theme of a Mobile British force well and helps overcome the poor quality of British Smoke. An alternative munitions sink could likewise work here as well.

ROYAL ENGINEER:
* Recovery Engineers
* Designate Command Vehicle
* Defensive Operations
* Anti Building Mortar Barrage
* AVRE

I'd really like to put the Land Mattress here, but I'm not sure if the balance team would go for 3 docs with it. The improved Defensive Operations is a decent alternative for an Engineering Company, which should excel at things like constructing fortifications and laying mines.

Summary:
In total, these changes would give some form of mobile indirect to every doctrine except Advanced Emplacement and Royal Engineers. (And even RE I'd love to see get some)

4 Doctrines would have access to a Mortar, although everyone but Lend/Lease is going to have to do some side teching to get it. (possibly too much) 2 Doctrines would now have the Land Mattress, and Royal Artillery would have the Sexton.

Finally, the changes would help balance out some of the awkward munitions costs in most Docs, although Commando remains largely untouched with a full 4 abilities.

Adding the mortar team to the Gliders is an interesting idea, similar to how it was done in the old CoH Commando Regiment.

I approve.

For Raid Sections I think they would be easier to use if you could upgrade 1 Vickers at a time. Now that they are in Tactical Support it's difficult to use both the supply drop and upgrade 2X Vickers early on if you want. It's also more appealing to give them a smaller power spike earlier and opens up more builds where you can actually tech weapon racks early.

The muni cost for the Strafing Support also needs to be increased to 225. P-47, CAS and Strafing Support Need to cost the same. Maybe it was already done- haven't had the time to check the notes again.

Imo and after the buff Tactical support is getting "Air resupply operation" needs to be looked.

The ability is available earlier that other similar airdrop weapons while being far most cost efficient.

The muni cost for the Strafing Support also needs to be increased to 225. P-47, CAS and Strafing Support Need to cost the same. Maybe it was already done- haven't had the time to check the notes again.

It was mentioned and not changed due to plane count. Lower impact, less planes.

It was mentioned and not changed due to plane count. Lower impact, less planes.

Thx for clarifying!

Nerf every brit commander with churchills.

Imo the Vicker-K /Raid section will probably cause issue.

Although turning Vicker-K into BAR might seem to be ok there are fundamental difference between USF and UKF unit that one should consider.

IS start with lower target and better far DPS tha riflemen and BAR-K fixes their main weakness: Close DPS and on the move DPS.

IS with 1 bren/BAR-K will simply perform excellent in all range.

Ro.E compared to RE might start a bit slow but once they vet up they become way too durable thus double BAR-K or even 3 weapons on them including flamer will make them a very cost efficient unit in late with lots of utility.

In a similar manner Raid section with double bren (or brain/BAR-K) will also perform great at all range similar or even superior to LMG Riflemen.

Giving BAR-K to UKF is more like giving LMG riflemen to UKF than simply giving them riflemen.

IS with 1 bren/BAR-K will simply perform excellent in all range.

The Fuel requirement to do this makes this impossible in any reasonable game between two players of equal skill. Even if it were possible, it doesn't actually provide enough benefit to justify doing because you're directly contradicting Infantry Sections main strength of superior long range damage by removing one of their Bren Guns, additionally, because you're attempting to also be aggressive with this squad you're invalidating the strength of the 1 Bren Gun on approach resulting in a gimped close range squad that doesn't deal enough damage to justify closing in with and a weaker ceiling in the lack of a second Bren at long range.

Ro.E compared to RE might start a bit slow but once they vet up they become way too durable thus double BAR-K or even 3 weapons on them including flamer will make them a very cost efficient unit in late with lots of utility.

Unless I'm wrong, you can only get 2 weapons on the Engineers, both the Recovery Sappers and normal Sappers. Sappers do become durable at Vet 3 but at the point where they are Vet 3 and you've placed double Vickers K's on them they are no longer a supporting Engineer unit. You are using them as a Mainline Infantry Unit and that is okay. When compared to Infantry Sections they're just fine and you're trading a late game infantry performance boost for an early game performance deficient when compared to Sections, not only that, but you're denying the ability for handheld At and Minesweepers for the ability to do this which is a fair tradeoff.

In a similar manner Raid section with double bren (or brain/BAR-K) will also perform great at all range similar or even superior to LMG Riflemen.

Putting Brens on Raid Sections make no sense as you can simply build regular Sections and place Brens on them for infinitely more impact and better performance. The only justification here I suppose would be the ability to skip Bolster which would leave you with a weakened Tommy + Sapper for not much benefit. While again placing Bren+VickersK on a Raid Section runs into the same problem as with regular sections that you're taking a unit designed with a purpose in mind and neutering that purpose for general utility which is shown to not work because utility does not trump specialized strength.

Your fears are unfounded in any practical sense.

The Fuel requirement to do this makes this impossible in any reasonable game between two players of equal skill. Even if it were possible, it doesn't actually provide enough benefit to justify doing because you're directly contradicting Infantry Sections main strength of superior long range damage by removing one of their Bren Guns, additionally, because you're attempting to also be aggressive with this squad you're invalidating the strength of the 1 Bren Gun on approach resulting in a gimped close range squad that doesn't deal enough damage to justify closing in with and a weaker ceiling in the lack of a second Bren at long range.

Not really, there are modes than simply 1vs1.

Unless I'm wrong, you can only get 2 weapons on the Engineers, both the Recovery Sappers and normal Sappers. Sappers do become durable at Vet 3 but at the point where they are Vet 3 and you've placed double Vickers K's on them they are no longer a supporting Engineer unit. You are using them as a Mainline Infantry Unit and that is okay. When compared to Infantry Sections they're just fine and you're trading a late game infantry performance boost for an early game performance deficient when compared to Sections, not only that, but you're denying the ability for handheld At and Minesweepers for the ability to do this which is a fair tradeoff.

You are wrong heavy sapper upgrade give up to 3 weapons plus armor.

And are not mainline infatry. They are cheap unit with low reinforcement cost and tonnes of utility.

Putting Brens on Raid Sections make no sense as you can simply build regular Sections and place Brens on them for infinitely more impact and better performance. The only justification here I suppose would be the ability to skip Bolster which would leave you with a weakened Tommy + Sapper for not much benefit. While again placing Bren+VickersK on a Raid Section runs into the same problem as with regular sections that you're taking a unit designed with a purpose in mind and neutering that purpose for general utility which is shown to not work because utility does not trump specialized strength.

Your fears are unfounded in any practical sense.

Again not really, its like saying that putting lmg on Riflemen makes no sense. LMG on Riflemen work great.

It actually does. They can fight longer range unit better and still be good at mid range. In sort the unit instead excelling in one range it becomes good at all range.

Not really, there are modes than simply 1vs1.

I don't care about team game balance because it's impossible to balance on a fundamental level due to unfixable flaws. Also Brits suck in team games anyway as far as I can tell, so that's irrelevant to me.

You are wrong heavy sapper upgrade give up to 3 weapons plus armor.

Worth keeping in mind then. Might go look at that since it seems interesting. I don't believe Recovery Sappers can be upgraded with the Heavy package can they?

And are not mainline infatry. They are cheap unit with low reinforcement cost and tonnes of utility.

So are Conscripts and Ostruppen. That doesn't make Sappers unsuitable to be treated as a Mainline style unit when you kit them as one. I'm pretty sure they're worse than both Cons and OPtruppen when kitted out too but that's speculation on my part.

Again not really, its like saying that putting lmg on Riflemen makes no sense. LMG on Riflemen work great.

A single Bren gun is much worse than a 1919 (Reflected via the price and the 2x slot usage) A singular Bren is actually quite underwhelming and barely improves very much about the unit's performance within reasonable combat distances unlike the 1919, it's the second Bren on the IS that push them into being a strong upgraded distance unit hence why most Brit players focus double Brens per Section over spreading singular Brens around.

It actually does. They can fight longer range unit better and still be good at mid range. In sort the unit instead excelling in one range it becomes good at all range.

You're just objectively wrong here. Splitting your weapon upgrades doesn't provide you enough universal damage to be effective at all ranges, it simply allows you to not be punished for sub-optimal play. The only way this is an effective way to kit your infantry is if you're constantly being caught out of position and misplaying your units and even in those situations you're going to be severely ineffective in infantry fights since you can't utilize your maximum damage potential by placing your infantry into a position to succeed. You're doing what is called "Playing to not lose" which ultimately ends up with you losing over a long period of time because you aren't directly countered by anything, but you lack the strength to actually win fights decisively due to the split efficiency. You should work on placing your units in situations to succeed with their maximum potential over attempting to avoid being caught with your pants down.

I don't care about team game balance because it's impossible to balance on a fundamental level due to unfixable flaws. Also Brits suck in team games anyway as far as I can tell, so that's irrelevant to me.

Then you have to clarify that you are talking from only 1vs1 perspective.

In that case is not worth it is probably not worth it unlock both weapon racks and m3 but you can still get brens and BAR-k on other units.

If one check top 200 for last month UKF have one of the highest win rate at 3vs3 with 48.3.

Worth keeping in mind then. Might go look at that since it seems interesting. I don't believe Recovery Sappers can be upgraded with the Heavy package can they?

Recovery sapper can get the heavy sapper upgrade. Even if they could not Heavy sapper can get up to 3 weapons including 3 BAR-K

So are Conscripts and Ostruppen. That doesn't make Sappers unsuitable to be treated as a Mainline style unit when you kit them as one. I'm pretty sure they're worse than both Cons and OPtruppen when kitted out too but that's speculation on my part.

Funny that you mention these units since both have only 1 weapon lost and can not carry 3 weapons.

A single Bren gun is much worse than a 1919 (Reflected via the price and the 2x slot usage) A singular Bren is actually quite underwhelming and barely improves very much about the unit's performance within reasonable combat distances unlike the 1919, it's the second Bren on the IS that push them into being a strong upgraded distance unit hence why most Brit players focus double Brens per Section over spreading singular Brens around.

With bren you pay what you get and it actually more cost efficient than 1919.

You're just objectively wrong here. Splitting your weapon upgrades doesn't provide you enough universal damage to be effective at all ranges, it simply allows you to not be punished for sub-optimal play.

So in other M1919 on riflemen is bad?
So double Bren on Commandos is bad?
Vamp on ober is bad?
LMG or paras is bad?

The only way this is an effective way to kit your infantry is if you're constantly being caught out of position and misplaying your units and even in those situations you're going to be severely ineffective in infantry fights since you can't utilize your maximum damage potential by placing your infantry into a position to succeed. You're doing what is called "Playing to not lose" which ultimately ends up with you losing over a long period of time because you aren't directly countered by anything, but you lack the strength to actually win fights decisively due to the split efficiency. You should work on placing your units in situations to succeed with their maximum potential over attempting to avoid being caught with your pants down.

Actually what it means that will perform good in all ranges and able to position in optimum range depending on what it facing.

If it facing an SMG unit will fight at long distance while being able to deal lots of damage even the SMG unit manages to close it.

If it facing a long range it can move to mid range and be able to trade effectively.

Inb4 someone actually is naive enough to believe that royal engineers are actually good if you put weapons on them other then PIATs, lets remember that REs are the ONLY infantry in the whole game who do NOT get ANY accuracy vet.

Their firepower does not scale, its ALL about the weapon itself and it falls short badly against vetted inf.

Inb4 someone actually is naive enough to believe that royal engineers are actually good if you put weapons on them other then PIATs, lets remember that REs are the ONLY infantry in the whole game who do NOT get ANY accuracy vet.

Their firepower does not scale, its ALL about the weapon itself and it falls short badly against vetted inf.

PLS provide evidence to back up your claims that vetted heavy sapper with LMGs are performing up vs vetted LMG grenadier/ST44 VG.

So in other M1919 on riflemen is bad?
So double Bren on Commandos is bad?
Vamp on ober is bad?
LMG or paras is bad?

Splitting weapon upgrades is bad* if I can correct my wording. So these all focus change the intent of a unit enough by virtue of their weapon upgrades providing the squad enough firepower at their new effective range to be useful rather than choosing a close and long range weapon upgrade.

Everything else was semantics, intentional hyper specific scenarios that don't apply to most general game situations or pointless to respond too.

PLS provide evidence to back up your claims that vetted heavy sapper with LMGs are performing up vs vetted LMG grenadier/ST44 VG.

Pls provide evidence to back your claims that its otherwise.
You're the one who made that claim.
Prove it first before asking proofs of others, excel sheet hero.

Splitting weapon upgrades is bad* if I can correct my wording.

Of course you can correct your wording, this is about communicating and not "scoring" victories in flame wars.

So these all focus change the intent of a unit enough by virtue of their weapon upgrades providing the squad enough firepower at their new effective range to be useful rather than choosing a close and long range weapon upgrade.

Everything else was semantics, intentional hyper specific scenarios that don't apply to most general game situations or pointless to respond too.

BAR-K does that for IS while Bren does that for Raid sections.

BAR-K IS are good mid range without having to vet like riflemen, while double Bren Raid section are better than LMG lifmen at long range for 20 munition more.