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Brummbar performance

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Hannibal
14 May 2021, 07:29 AM
#161
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:01 AMleithianz


You are right on the matter (cause having p4 vs Churchill is in favor of Churchill obviously) the reason original author claimed was differ.



I wanted to point out irony of clamming 240 armor as "bounces off everything" (180 in fact, because he claimed "rear") when we are speaking about one of the highest(312) armor unit in this thread.

Sorry, first thing was a typo. I meant you DON'T need a TD to stop a medium in contrast to stopping a Churchill where you need one.

The 180 rear armor is important because flanking with a medium won't help much. A mid range P4 still bounces a third of its shots.
If you flank an OKW P4 even with a T34 you will do damage. Overall, other mediums and ATGs can therefore be threats to mediums, but can (not have to) be unreliable vs the Churchill unless amassed. That's why a TD is your best choice. It is the same with all heavy tanks and unvetted ATGs across all factions, although heavies already got their rear armor reduced to allow for exactly that flanking damage.
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Katitof
14 May 2021, 07:34 AM
#162
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:18 AMJilet


Are you illiterate ? I have never claimed that it bounces off everything. I said "Everything less than a Panther" since AT guns are out of the equation against Churchill. Have fun against Churchills with 50 Range 185 penetration StuGs against 180 REAR armor.

Umm, 2 StuGs are much more effective against churchill then single panther.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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leithianz
14 May 2021, 07:40 AM
#163
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:29 AMHannibal

The 180 rear armor is important because flanking with a medium won't help much. A mid range P4 still bounces a third of its shots.


But don't forget the fact that flanking Churchill is way much easier than flanking mid. With it's crippled mobility. We are talking about tank with 2/3 of the avg. tank's top speed. Where mainline inf. don't have snare with them.
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Vipper
14 May 2021, 07:51 AM
#164
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:40 AMleithianz


But don't forget the fact that flanking Churchill is way much easier than flanking mid. With it's crippled mobility. We are talking about tank with 2/3 of the avg. tank's top speed. Where mainline inf. don't have snare with them.

Not really. Churchill has abnormally high rotation and acceleration so flanking is not harder than flanking a brumbar ever though it slower.
:)
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Hannibal
14 May 2021, 07:54 AM
#165
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:40 AMleithianz

But don't forget the fact that flanking Churchill is way much easier than flanking mid. With it's crippled mobility. We are talking about tank with 2/3 of the avg. tank's top speed. Where mainline inf. don't have snare with them.

We're really straying away from the Brummbar, so I'd leave this as a last note from my side.
It is very hard to properly damage a Churchill if you do not get a TD, because the Churchill poses a threat to your only reliable option: ATGs. That's why people prefer TDs. If your alpha damage is not high enough, your ATGs must pack up and there is nothing to stop the Churchill.
In that regard it is similar to the Brummbar, however the Brummbar can't resort to a large HP pool and can also be flanked, so overextending can be punished even if you only have a medium at hand. But especially with vet, it also forces the Allied players to get a TD.
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leithianz
14 May 2021, 08:03 AM
#166
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:54 AMHannibal
If your alpha damage is not high enough, your ATGs must pack up and there is nothing to stop the Churchill.


Yes cool with me. This will be the last post from my side. But I must say this. Churchill comes with almost identical to cromwell' gun. Only thing they can do to force ATG away is many attached mgs & grenade.

It's like dealing with slow version / low armor-high hp Panther. You can't destory it, but surely can force it away. Especially when OST has target weak spot skill that stuns for a while. Even 2 AT (much easier with the help of any tank) can get Churchill if skill is enabled.

TBH, I don't know why the topic has gone from Brummbar to the Churchill. One is one of the must-pick especially in 2v2~4v4. And one is nerfed to the ground that almost all sane player don't even bother to go for.

teching to Anvil + 165 fuel for Cromwell gun / 19 pop cap / comparably row armor(to the axis tank) / high hp with slow repair.(remember nerfs on heavy engi.)
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leithianz
14 May 2021, 08:06 AM
#167
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:51 AMVipper

Not really. Churchill has abnormally high rotation and acceleration so flanking is not harder than flanking a brumbar ever though it slower.


High rotation & acceleration helps maneuver the tank in the field, but does not help much from the dive-in tanks.
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Jilet
14 May 2021, 08:08 AM
#168
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I already tried to explain but keep going with your biased, ignorant and unconstructive way of thinking my guy. And the reason why the topic got derailed is because you keeping trying to mock me for unknown reason with your "arguments" even though I actively said I wanted to cut the churchill thing.
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leithianz
14 May 2021, 08:14 AM
#169
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 08:08 AMJilet
I already tried to explain but keep going with your biased, ignorant and unconstructive way of thinking my guy.


Unlike Hannibal, I have serious doubt on your understanding in this game. Especially after you mentioned Stug vs Churchill. I still have not got answer from my last post bro.
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Sander93
14 May 2021, 09:04 AM
#170
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 06:41 AMEsxile
If Brumbar weren't OP we wouldn't see so many Ostheer players rushing for it even if their opponent already has a medium tank on the field.


I assume you mean in teamgames. People rush T4 there because T3 in teamgames is bad. Apart from the occasional Ostwind rush. It has little to do with the Brummbar being supposedly OP, more with it being the only reliable option.
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mrgame2
14 May 2021, 09:06 AM
#171
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:34 AMKatitof

Umm, 2 StuGs are much more effective against churchill then single panther.


that's not true as seen from that infamous game where Churchill walked all over stugs, that was final straw to nerf the Churchill.

before that, Churchill were already very strong companion in 2v2 games, but that was final straw iirc
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mrgame2
14 May 2021, 09:10 AM
#172
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 09:04 AMSander93


I assume you mean in teamgames. People rush T4 there because T3 in teamgames is bad. Apart from the occasional Ostwind rush. It has little to do with the Brummbar being supposedly OP, more with it being the only reliable option.


ya in my rank 500 4v4, i will skip t3 as i can get carried.

even in my rank 1000 2v2, i get ostwind in t3 only or the occasional stugs to deal with ukf. p4 is too tricky to stay alive in 2v2 with double the ATG
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Katitof
14 May 2021, 09:14 AM
#173
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 09:06 AMmrgame2


that's not true as seen from that infamous game where Churchill walked all over stugs, that was final straw to nerf the Churchill.

before that, Churchill were already very strong companion in 2v2 games, but that was final straw iirc

That infamous game had 3 churchills and 5 SPREAD AROUND stugs.
Literally historical blitzkrieg against France situation.
Its not indicator of anything as much as you'd like it to be otherwise.

Yes, it resulted in a knee jerk nerf and churchill got buffed due to it at the cost of pop.

Get your facts straight.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Vipper
14 May 2021, 09:18 AM
#174
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 08:06 AMleithianz


High rotation & acceleration helps maneuver the tank in the field, but does not help much from the dive-in tanks.

And maneuvering allows one to to face enemy tanks instead of exposing one's flanks.
:)
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mrgame2
14 May 2021, 09:32 AM
#175
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 09:14 AMKatitof

That infamous game had 3 churchills and 5 SPREAD AROUND stugs.
Literally historical blitzkrieg against France situation.
Its not indicator of anything as much as you'd like it to be otherwise.

Yes, it resulted in a knee jerk nerf and churchill got buffed due to it at the cost of pop.

Get your facts straight.


i always prepared to get stug in 2v2 if i see a ukf. but imo jp4 is more fitting to what you said. 2 stugs are not reliable enough
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Esxile
14 May 2021, 11:21 AM
#176
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 09:04 AMSander93


I assume you mean in teamgames. People rush T4 there because T3 in teamgames is bad. Apart from the occasional Ostwind rush. It has little to do with the Brummbar being supposedly OP, more with it being the only reliable option.


How fortunate Brumbar can just shit on everything that comes at it since T3 is bad.
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Jilet
14 May 2021, 11:56 AM
#177
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 07:25 AMleithianz


Um.... you do realize 185 pen. against 180 armor means 100% pen. right...? Or is it me that gets everything wrong again?


Yes. I ran this entire thing for you to see that it doesn't work that way and even installed bandicam and uploaded it to youtube only for you. You can clearly see 2 shots are deflecting and it is not 100% penetration.

https://youtu.be/xmvpIaIK_Hw
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general_gawain
14 May 2021, 12:15 PM
#178
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 11:56 AMJilet


Yes. I ran this entire thing for you to see that it doesn't work that way and even installed bandicam and uploaded it to youtube only for you. You can clearly see 2 shots are deflecting and it is not 100% penetration.

https://youtu.be/xmvpIaIK_Hw


Why are the StuGs are shooting from the side?

There is no side armor so it is either rear or front armor that gets hit. Maybe there is a small angle where it is depended on RNG if you hit rear or front. That could have happened in that video.

Edit: Same video with Churchill turning its back to StuGs please.
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Jilet
14 May 2021, 12:20 PM
#179
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 12:15 PMgeneral_gawain


Why are the StuGs are shooting from the side?



I thought putting it in a situation that is more realistic than getting to the back of the Churchill as a casemate tank was a better idea. But I'll do the thing later on when I'm available brother.
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KoRneY
14 May 2021, 12:36 PM
#180
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 May 2021, 06:56 AMleithianz


it's from the recent ongoing 2v2. Maybe you can find a Eng. version.

Match shows fast Brum + early stuka.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1016595253?t=4h24m19s
Funny thing is, the next match(where prev. allies playing axis) axis uses exact same tactic.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1016595253?t=4h24m39s

Or the final match (not early brum but shows always-on "hold fire" with ground attack)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1016595253?t=6h46m41s

Kinda proves my point in other thread how early-stuka is efficient especially with AT.


???

I'm not doubting how good a brum is. Person I quoted used a vid from seeking. I more or less doubt anyone has a good enough idea to replace it
/s
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