Ostheer Commander Revamp 2021

You suddenly forgot weapon racks cost fuel too?

what gave you that impression???

If you don't want to factor in costs of racks, you can't factor in costs of reinforcing that 5th gren.
Sorry, no double standards.

OK, how would you factor the cost of rax every individual rifle men/any other unit. I would like to hear it. If you don't reply I'll simply take this as straw man argument.

OK, how would you factor the cost of rax every individual rifle men/any other unit. I would like to hear it. If you don't reply I'll simply take this as straw man argument.

The usual.
Cost of upgrade divided by amount of units that will likely benefit from it.
In USF case, 6 would be a good number.

Timing is also a measurement of units strength and potency and 7 man cons arrive much later then 5 man grens.

That is a simple fact.

The game doesn't end when both players have fully teched idiot. that makes no sense why at late game a new cheaper 7-man cons should be any better than a new 5-man gren.

The game doesn't end when both players have fully teched idiot. that makes no sense why at late game a new cheaper 7-man cons should be any better than a new 5-man gren.

There is a timing for units to peak. They continue to be useful, but the time when they were strongest is past them.
For cons, its late game.
For grens and volks its mid game.

Timing is also a measurement of units strength and potency and 7 man cons arrive much later then 5 man grens.

That is a simple fact.

Conscripts 7 men timing has very little to do with a thread about Ostheer commander revamp.

Conscripts 7 men timing has very little to do with a thread about Ostheer commander revamp.

Exactly, but since memory seems fleeting:

5 men grenadier cost 270 manpower/ 60 munition, that same way 7 men conscripts cost 258 / 50 munition.

That is a simple fact.

So why are you comparing them out of sudden, like it did, when you yourself said its irrelevant?

Exactly.


So why are you comparing them out of sudden, like it did, when you yourself said its irrelevant?

If you have any useful input about Ostheer commander revamp feel free to add.

The usual.
Cost of upgrade divided by amount of units that will likely benefit from it.
In USF case, 6 would be a good number.

I'll let you figure out on your own why that is not a good way of factoring the cost.

I'll let you figure out on your own why that is not a good way of factoring the cost.

In the meantime, I'll grow old waiting for you to come up with a good excuse why.

If you have any useful input about Ostheer commander revamp feel free to add.

My input is, since writing is your strength, not reading, 5 man grens are balanced now for their timing.
You want to see them being stronger again? Then delay them.

In the meantime, I'll grow old waiting for you to come up with a good excuse why.

Like I said, i'll let you figure out your self. Or are you saying you are not smart enough to do that in reasonable amount of time.

Like I said, i'll let you figure out your self. Or are you saying you are not smart enough to do that in reasonable amount of time.

Don't post in arguments if you don't have arguments of your own.....
I'll let you figure out yourself why.

The usual.
Cost of upgrade divided by amount of units that will likely benefit from it.
In USF case, 6 would be a good number.

You still keep perpetuating this as if it was the only way to do and as if there were no arguments against it.
So I'll just keep pointing out that most Allied side techs are meant to delay the main tech, so the costs are also there to delay the main tech.

...
My input is, since writing is your strength, not reading, 5 man grens are balanced now for their timing.

If that is the point you want contribute to this thread, may I suggest that you start with that instead of starting on how much BAR riflemen cost, a subject that has been debated extensively in a thread specifically about it.

Pls avoid personal comments that not constructive (for a third time)

You want to see them being stronger again? Then delay them.

I have not made any suggestions about 5 men grenadier to be stronger or weaker.

What you are proposing would not work because, if one delays the 5 men grenadier upgrade, it would become rather pointless because players would probably be forced to upgrade with mgs just to survive.

You still keep perpetuating this as if it was the only way to do and as if there were no arguments against it.
So I'll just keep pointing out that most Allied side techs are meant to delay the main tech, so the costs are also there to delay the main tech.

You still have a choice to delay it, you aren't forced into that cost, so delaying factor of side tech, in USF case, is completely optional pre 1st med.

If you get it early, rifles will outperform grens and volks regardless of their upgrade of choice, if you delay it to post med tank, then grens and volks will have longer period where their performance is peaked because of tech choice of delaying your own upgrades.

You can argue however you want about the value of cost inflation of weapon upgrades for allies, but you can't argue it doesn't inflate units cost at all and is just a matter of timing, that last thing applies exclusively to soviets and their choice to rush 7th man at a cost or delay it and have it unlocked through tech timing later on.

Thing is, side tech cost and potential timing of upgrades both factor in units potential strength.
And lastly, I never said allied side tech cost is NOT meant to delay tech, just that you need to factor at least part of its cost into units strength, because it directly leads to improving that units performance in an exclusive way aka you do not get any tech benefits other then improvements to infantry.

You still keep perpetuating this as if it was the only way to do and as if there were no arguments against it.
So I'll just keep pointing out that most Allied side techs are meant to delay the main tech, so the costs are also there to delay the main tech.

Yeah, in the current build of the game(and for a while) it doesn't really do that. It's only a gating mechanism.

snip

I'll make it short since this is a rather off topic discussion and we've had it plenty of times before:

Adding side tech cost for Allies only is completely misleading. Allied infantry is meant to have side techs by design, they need it to be competitive. The cost of those side techs as well as unit timings have been balanced with Allied main tech (that's why the pure Allied main tech path is cheaper than Axis counterparts). When the side tech has to be bought matters for balancing, but not for the overall point.
So you have two choices for comparison between Allied and Axis squads: Either add side techs to the main tech cost. Or as you say, add it to the unit cost. But then split some arbitrary amount of Axis tech cost to weapon upgrade/nade unlock etc as well. Because this is part of what their teching benefit, but Axis does not have a choice while doing so.




So finally after all that back to 5 men Grens:

Factoring in the costs here is okay, because you get them regardless of teching or any other condition. They have been balanced towards the LMG alternative, not the timing of another unit.

I have an Idea for revamping the German Mechanized Doctrine.

German Mechanized Doctrine

0cp: 250 ht
2cp: Mechanization Training(new ability): Allows pioneers to
do critical repairs similar to USF vehicle crews, and gives
grens and upgrade this upgrade gives grens combined arm
ability.
5cp: Motorized equipment(new ability): Gives all vehicle 2
upgrade mutually exclusive between spotting scopes and smoke
discharge also allows pioneers to build repai bunkers.
7cp: P4 command Tank
8cp: LeFH 18.

I'll make it short since this is a rather off topic discussion and we've had it plenty of times before:

Adding side tech cost for Allies only is completely misleading. Allied infantry is meant to have side techs by design, they need it to be competitive. The cost of those side techs as well as unit timings have been balanced with Allied main tech (that's why the pure Allied main tech path is cheaper than Axis counterparts). When the side tech has to be bought matters for balancing, but not for the overall point.
So you have two choices for comparison between Allied and Axis squads: Either add side techs to the main tech cost. Or as you say, add it to the unit cost. But then split some arbitrary amount of Axis tech cost to weapon upgrade/nade unlock etc as well. Because this is part of what their teching benefit, but Axis does not have a choice while doing so.




So finally after all that back to 5 men Grens:

Factoring in the costs here is okay, because you get them regardless of teching or any other condition. They have been balanced towards the LMG alternative, not the timing of another unit.

This.

I hate how people always try to compare balance in a vaccum here.
"Allied weapon upgrades are too potient for their timing"
"But allied weapon uppgrades requre side techs"

But, we are saying that even with that cost they are too potient. And, as Hanbal has said, it doesn't factor in the reduced tech costs that allies have to make up for the cost of the weapon upgrades.

Stop nitpicking this detal. It is irrelivant. If you think they are fine just say "They are fine for their timing and cost", not "(x) has (y) but (z) doesn't, so its unfair"

That is not what matters. what matters is that the ability/unit is balanced for its timing.

I have an Idea for revamping the German Mechanized Doctrine.

German Mechanized Doctrine

0cp: 250 ht
2cp: Mechanization Training(new ability): Allows pioneers to
do critical repairs similar to USF vehicle crews, and gives
grens and upgrade this upgrade gives grens combined arm
ability.
5cp: Motorized equipment(new ability): Gives all vehicle 2
upgrade mutually exclusive between spotting scopes and smoke
discharge also allows pioneers to build repai bunkers.
7cp: P4 command Tank
8cp: LeFH 18.

Intersting. I dont think that grenadiers should get combined arms, it could lead to combined arms upgraded grenadier death blobs around a vehicle, similar to the old sturm officer.
Plus, I think we are trying to move away from passive buff auras (Which your combined arms upgrade essentialy is)

Also, there is no munitions sink to use your minitions on lategame.