Top level player allegedly maphacking in CoH2

Copied from ML-Discord:
It is my sad duty to inform fans, players, referees, and patrons that the player 'Seeking' is hereby suspended from further ML tournaments for alleged map hacking, pending further investigation and with the chance to appeal.

In a rare unanimous review 19 of the most experienced community members reviewed around 40-50 clips and declared that external applications were most likely used to explain the abnormal play. Seeking has a week to appeal via PM for further review and discussion, and due to a lot of people being already aware of the issue, we have no choice but to make it public (to stop gossip and speculation.)

Associated player: Kimbo and other accounts: Deadbolt, Setap, and Flap will also be suspended where applicable, pending further review and discussion. This doesn't mean Kimbo is banned just that with two tournaments coming up we need time to discuss, and investigate.

No one takes any pride or pleasure in any of this, and I wish that the official mechanisms had detected initially or respected community opinions subsequently. This will cause everyone concerned a great deal of stress, so everyone please take a breath, give your self time to process, and analyse. Then discuss as civilly as possible.

Evidence: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kmaAUD06reJOxMx3Xd2_fqpWh7HCVF2Pzs4GTWlCc8k/edit

Associated video announcement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfeXzGUN7PE

Some of the replays:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Eqh7r-27REbut0O46OOmlt01W17_y_C-

I agree that the choice you made in making this public and let people form their own opinions while reviewing the same clips is the correct decision.

I invite anyone whose gonna comment here to do so before jumping to conclusions. And to remember that even if you find in condemning (or not) the player has the time and the rights to appeal and defense himself.


At the end of the day, remember that this is a game/hobby or whatever title you want to put in front of it, and do not lash out or go personally against the subject/s involved. Let tournament managers and Relic handle it.

Most of the SUS clips can be explained by what I have been saying for years but no one wants to believe: What you see in game is not what the server is doing. You are the client and operating on the data you have available. There is other data coming to the server from other players etc.

So most of the clips are of things that have units on the edge of the FOW. I would not accept any of those as cheating.

The Brumbar direct hitting the cloaked AT guns on AOD is VERY suspect. Seeking has explained that he knew they were there and just got lucky. One thing I would point out is that when he shot the AT guns he backed away. If he had vision and was cheating, he would NOT have backed away and would have further attacked them to finish his enemy. His movements support his argument that he knew they were retreating back thru that area and he was attacked by them earlier and knew they were there.

People keep focusing on the sniper moving left on Wolfheze. To me it looks like he was following his flame pios which were giving vision. Then they met the volks and moved further left to get around the sight block hedge. If he was cheating he would have pushed the enemy sniper with the pios and followed with the sniper.

The Wolfheze katy shot can also be explained by the recon plane overhead. If it was playing a second or two ahead on Seekings game, he would have seen the blob. More desync issues, not necessarily cheating.

The small problem here is the game is not synced. And once you see the brumbar attack the cloaked AT guns, the rest of the clips will be viewed with bias.

THE BIG PROBLEM (FOR RELIC)
Please store the player clicks and commands in future games. If we could see what Seeking was clicking, that would explain several SUS moments like the MG placement on the center of crossroads.

THE BIG PROBLEM (FOR COMMUNITY)
There is some questionable stuff going on here. What is the impact on the community if we let cheaters slide? Is it better to sacrifice a player or two for the benefit of all?

Some of the clips are definitely weird timing wise and the Brummbar is especially weird but I don't think you can ban him 100% without definitive proof of him cheating. I think a lot of people don't really how important timing is in CoH 2 especially in high level games. Attack move also reacts instantly when something is spotted at the edge of fog war. Lucky timing of mg's setting up happens all of the time in games. Sometimes you just predict where the opponent is coming from and guess right. If Seeking was cheating I feel like he would be more dominant because he is already a Top 10 player in 1v1 mechanically speaking. I would just look at it as innocent until proven guilty and even though there is some solid evidence but its not overwhelming in my opinion. Banning Kimbo in this situation is even more strange because its under the assumption that Kimbo was actively playing with a map hacker that he knew was cheating and he did it anyway. I think its just too many assumptions to be absolutely certain.

My 2 cents from watching the clips: the 'evidence' is lacking in quality in determining if he is cheating or not. So many can be explained by clips out of context, or coming from the point of view of being a lower rank player instead of what high rank players must learn to do when they are playing top ranked games every day (IE moving an MG once one squad is suppressed, I am guessing that top level players know that once a squad is suppressed, there is a high probability another one will instantly be coming to flank it). The most damning one seems to be the Brummbar firing through FOW, I think this can lay in the realm of good guessing as this spot of the map is an area where units become bunched up and he had prior knowledge of the AT guns being around there. The Brummbar gets hit by AT gun fire about 8 seconds before he fires into that area using attack ground, he knows the AT guns are there, it's hardly evidence or proof of hacking. He avoids an MG in one clip and then comes back to flank it as it packs up and resets, how on earth is this be taken as evidence? This sort of luck or caluclated play happens every game. A Stuka barrage into the FOW which manages to miss an infantry blob and kill one or two models on a .50 cal, in the most populated, highly contested area of the map is evidence? Come on...There is one where he attack ground a T70 through the FOW, something that is entirely common, the shot connects. What people say is proof of cheating here is that he takes another shot and it connects with the T70 in a slightly different position, this is preposterous as when you hit something through FOW from a guess shot, it reveals the unit, he could easily just readjust for the 2nd shot since he knows where the T70 is from a game mechanic.

There is no smoking gun here and this becomes extremely suspect in itself that the community managers chose to expose this and try this guy in the court of public opinion instead of dealing with this confidentially at first and letting him say his side of the story. Even if he can prove 100% that he is innocent, these community managers have already destroyed his reputation, this shows extreme negligence and very poor logic on the part of the community managers from my perspective.

I have a clip of Flap using attack ground on my concealed sniper w PTRS would you like the replay for that?

Some of the clips are definitely weird timing wise and the Brummbar is especially weird but I don't think you can ban him 100% without definitive proof of him cheating. I think a lot of people don't really how important timing is in CoH 2 especially in high level games. Attack move also reacts instantly when something is spotted at the edge of fog war. Lucky timing of mg's setting up happens all of the time in games. Sometimes you just predict where the opponent is coming from and guess right. If Seeking was cheating I feel like he would be more dominant because he is already a Top 10 player in 1v1 mechanically speaking. I would just look at it as innocent until proven guilty and even though there is some solid evidence but its not overwhelming in my opinion. Banning Kimbo in this situation is even more strange because its under the assumption that Kimbo was actively playing with a map hacker that he knew was cheating and he did it anyway. I think its just too many assumptions to be absolutely certain.

Come on, pinpoint accurate "random" shot right into the position of CLOAKED and UNDETECTED ATG?
That alone is well beyond "lucky" or "anticipation".

This guy doesnt need maphack to win top players left and right, I can say that I watch his streamings and Kimbo's, watched all the ¨evidences¨ (if you can call those that), and I dont think he is maphacking.

Excellent situational awareness and coincidences (yes coincidences happen people) is now called hacking?? Imagine being so good at a game that people call you cheater and they succeed lol, this reminds me of Napoleon and everyone against him because he was just too good for them.

He even streamed all those evidences and explained.them.ALL.

PD: I even saw a clip where 5man gren still had the G43...how old are some of these clips man? lol

This guy doesnt need maphack to win top players left and right, I can say that I watch his streamings and Kimbo's, watched all the ¨evidences¨ (if you can call those that), and I dont think he is maphacking.

Excellent situational awareness and coincidences (yes coincidences happen people) is now called hacking?? Imagine being so good at a game that people call you cheater and they succeed lol, this reminds me of Napoleon and everyone against him because he was just too good for them.

He even streamed all those evidences and explained.them.ALL.

PD: I even saw a clip where 5man gren still had the G43...how old are some of these clips man? lol

Except he didn't explain any of the seriously suspicious ones at all. He could not explain prefiring this katyusha at a blob he never saw and just bumbled around for 5 minutes and moved on.

Show Spoiler

The title of the post assumes that the cheating have been proved whiteout doubt, which is not the case. This is not professional tbh.

The title of the post assumes that the cheating have been proved whiteout doubt, which is not the case. This is not professional tbh.

Run the vid and see for yourself.
Either he has foresight of a farseer and 1ms or less reaction time, its not possible for regular human to do what he did there.

And he himself wasn't able to explain the situations on vids.

Run the vid and see for yourself.
Either he has foresight of a farseer and 1ms or less reaction time, its not possible for regular human to do what he did there.

As sturmpanther himself said, they still didnt finish discussing with the player. The title of this post is misleading and tries to support a given narrative.

While there will always be latency between client and server, a lot of times, units were not in the edge of FOW, especially not in the <100ms delay range. No big philosophy here. 95% sure is cheating. 5% is for a couple of shots that can be thought of as "luck". The brummbar hitting the cloaked AT gun is one of the biggest proofs.

Another reason why I have no respect for no-life "pro" gamers. Plenty of people from the "Pro" scene have been banned in numerous e-sports or whatever it's called. Not really surprising that somebody who has income from it will do whatever it takes to win. Question is: How many times has he cheated and successfully covered it

Most of the SUS clips can be explained by what I have been saying for years but no one wants to believe: What you see in game is not what the server is doing. You are the client and operating on the data you have available. There is other data coming to the server from other players etc.

So most of the clips are of things that have units on the edge of the FOW. I would not accept any of those as cheating.

What do you think of the example in the Google Doc between the live & the replay? I know a corrupt replay will have all sorts of things off, like wrong units, random retreating units, and subsequently incorrect data on kills, and captures, but I don't think any of these replays show a corrupt replay file like that. So, if units are the correct ones and in the proper positions, the fog of war ought to be accurate?

In some clips (like Seeking vs Noggano in ML4) the MG is packing up before the enemy squad is in view and before the visual ping on the minimap. Do you think we can only definitively say that FoW is identical between live and replay if we have livestream or live recording from the player?

Honestly a bit BS. Not to question "gods" of coh2. But how did they determine if he is cheater or not?

I mean fist clip with AT.
1)Random shot with Bumbar into clocked AT gun, ye suspesious. But shooting when they are retreat, AE says AT guns werent shooting, but they did shoot brumbarr twise.
2) Sniper. Really cant say at all, because we dont know how this Axis guy played. Maybe he was always standing this bushes. And regarding sov sniper movement, I looks more like a nerd play, instead of Maphack.
3) Pathfinder clip, well alright no explanation here.
4) MG42 clip. MG42 crew litterly shot him. And you can see 1 MG42 crew model moving for into vision just before rifle movement.
5) Litteraly started moving MG42 when 50.cal appeared on the middle and started shooting.
6) AT gun clip is suspecious. But again, we dont see full replay, if he knew there was an AT gun, then he could have predict it, because if this AT gun would be been retreated to the enemy base he would have notice it (because his inf was moving behind possible reteat path), so the only place AT gun could have been is on the map edge.
7) Well yes, kinda suspecious, but nothing special.

I mean, maybe he is a cheater, but the clips chosen by the AE are like insanly easy to explain. Proves like nothing.
6

What do you think of the example in the Google Doc between the live & the replay? I know a corrupt replay will have all sorts of things off, like wrong units, random retreating units, and subsequently incorrect data on kills, and captures, but I don't think any of these replays show a corrupt replay file like that. So, if units are the correct ones and in the proper positions, the fog of war ought to be accurate?

In some clips (like Seeking vs Noggano in ML4) the MG is packing up before the enemy squad is in view and before the visual ping on the minimap. Do you think we can only definitively say that FoW is identical between live and replay if we have livestream or live recording from the player?

I have clips of luvnest doing even much more on spot MG turns than that. specially in game where he played vs Jesulin as USF.

You guys are just seeing things you want to see.

Here is the Luvnest example https://youtu.be/-LwgKnwtqtI?list=PL5Gq-kPFBcWF8NW9r1HtxeSKSGTEYze7c&t=3773

Luvnest not only turned the mg, he even activated incendiary rounds.

I have clips of luvnest doing even much more on spot MG turns than that. specially in game where he played vs Jesulin as USF.

You guys are just seeing things you want to see.

There are old clip with Noganno, when he randomly attacked ground and killed moving clocked sniper who wasnt even shooting with a pre-fire.

You can see this BS all the time if you start to nitpicking it.

There are old clip with Noganno, when he randomly attacked ground and killed moving clocked sniper who wasnt even shooting with a pre-fire.

You can see this BS all the time if you start to nitpicking it.

I randomly killed a sniper using a gren rifle nade, just by randomly guessing where the sniper is.

That is not a proof of cheating.

I have clips of luvnest doing even much more on spot MG turns than that. specially in game where he played vs Jesulin as USF.

You guys are just seeing things you want to see.

Here is the Luvnest example https://youtu.be/-LwgKnwtqtI?list=PL5Gq-kPFBcWF8NW9r1HtxeSKSGTEYze7c&t=3773

Luvnest not only turned the mg, he even activated incendiary rounds.

In this it's impossible to know because fog of war is off here, but you can see in the top left of the screen that one of the rifleman models is very close to the MG near the edge of the hedge.

In this it's impossible to know because fog of war is off here, but you can see in the top left of the screen that one of the rifleman models is very close to the MG near the edge of the hedge.

having played this map a ton, am pretty sure i recall that the mg from that position cant see anything from the other side.