Classic case of an unnecessary double nerf. Instead of taking away the issue (that they did too much damage while being very tough to kill), the balance team took away both.
Since it's agreed their durability was too much, either return the G43 or boost the StG they get. Because if 5 Man Grens are useless, no one's going to pick this commander.
German Infantry Commander adjustments
12 Mar 2021, 00:44 AM
#41
Posts: 379 | Subs: 1
12 Mar 2021, 05:31 AM
#42
Posts: 1563
I assume you will concede that stock Grens generally beat stock Cons at longer ranges?
well it's the design of the game no one has much leeway there.
So if each upgrade adds 1 extra model then that means there is no change in their relationship. Add in the fact that VSL gives them a cooldown bonus still and STG (superior to G43 at longer ranges) then they still win at longer ranges assuming no user error. They just simply don't win *as* hard as LMG grens.
It's not all that simple. The sgt has lower damage and is an auto weapon that means it's damage is more spread out compared to things like con_mosin's or gren_kar's work. DPS alone isn't really a good indication on how an engagement is gonna go.
12 Mar 2021, 06:07 AM
#43
Posts: 1289
What???? Really there is nothing more you can say other than BS.
Right the balance team basically removed any disadvantages/drawbacks/risk involved with parallel teching for every single faction so that's not even worth considering.
Yes of course don't play the game at all what a realistic statement. May I remind you you need to actually build t1(the same thing as teching for sovs) to get grens at all in the first place. Just try not to tech/place buiding and get 5 man grens, You can't OMG what an insight.
T4 tech requirements mean nothing as you get it eventually. After that how do you justify less costly unit out performing another. Because the games gonna reach a point where every player has access to all tech and only resources will be spent on unit and upgrades. What justification does tech requirement have then of less costly units out performing more costly one. There isn't any other wise OST t4 units would be priced lower Since they come later than all other vehicles but that wouldn't make sense in end game(or even post tech game)
BS? Sure man,
What does t1 cost for ost? Very little and its the first building you can build right away and doesnt just give acces to grens. Reaching the tech to get 7th man costs a shit ton more, even then you need to get snare and molly wich is mp and fuel spend only for cons.
But hey teching is done regardless lets just ignore that and look at cons and grens in a vacum and leave out all the rest. And only then it seems that grens with vsl are a more expensive unit and should be a bit better. But being objective is hard these days. I would love to hear yourvreason why the mg42 is so much better then the maxim dispite costing the same exluding tech.
They switched some units around for usf a while back so the at and ai is spread out a bit better now. Stil the atgun and .50 cal arent in bot paths.
12 Mar 2021, 06:16 AM
#44
Posts: 1794
Classic case of an unnecessary double nerf. Instead of taking away the issue (that they did too much damage while being very tough to kill), the balance team took away both.
Since it's agreed their durability was too much, either return the G43 or boost the StG they get. Because if 5 Man Grens are useless, no one's going to pick this commander.
well said, same thoughts! i never get the modders lust of usual double nerfs or double buffs to resolve meta issues
i am thinking to remove storms and replaced with command p4 at the same command p4 cp
this should give a more infantry synergy. a vet HT acts as forward reinforcement and a cp4 giving back some of the original VSL durability.
there's no room for storms in this doctrine.
if you look at shocks to is2 or rangers to pershing....a cp4 isn't any outlier!
12 Mar 2021, 06:25 AM
#45
Posts: 1563
BS? Sure man,
What does t1 cost for ost? Very little and its the first building you can build right away and doesnt just give acces to grens. Reaching the tech to get 7th man costs a shit ton more, even then you need to get snare and molly wich is mp and fuel spend only for cons.
But hey teching is done regardless lets just ignore that and look at cons and grens in a vacum and leave out all the rest. And only then it seems that grens with vsl are a more expensive unit and should be a bit better. But being objective is hard these days. I would love to hear yourvreason why the mg42 is so much better then the maxim dispite costing the same exluding tech.
They switched some units around for usf a while back so the at and ai is spread out a bit better now. Stil the atgun and .50 cal arent in bot paths.
Yeah man great argument don't play the game. Yeah sure insane logic.
12 Mar 2021, 07:13 AM
#46
Posts: 1289
Yeah man great argument don't play the game. Yeah sure insane logic.
I play enough and have at least some insight in the bigger picture, what i dont have is a narrow perspective and an attitude with any who disagree.
When you lose your argument or get challengend you resort to you dont play the game. Or are you gonna give your reason why the mg42 is so much better dispite costing the same as the maxim? You wont because it counter the vsl grens are more expensive and should be better.
12 Mar 2021, 08:19 AM
#47
Posts: 1563
I play enough and have at least some insight in the bigger picture, what i dont have is a narrow perspective and an attitude with any who disagree.
When you lose your argument or get challengend you resort to you dont play the game.
Dude you can't expect to say BS and expect people to not show you attitude.
I see. Ok when I say "don't play the game" I mean you brought up a situation which only happens if just go afk.
Or are you gonna give your reason why the mg42 is so much better dispite costing the same as the maxim? You wont because it counter the vsl grens are more expensive and should be better.
You should ask that question to the balance team m8. They are one who designed it that way, can't help in an argument where I share the same opinion. But that is another terrible argument.
12 Mar 2021, 08:24 AM
#48
Posts: 857 | Subs: 2
Classic case of an unnecessary double nerf. Instead of taking away the issue (that they did too much damage while being very tough to kill), the balance team took away both.
Since it's agreed their durability was too much, either return the G43 or boost the StG they get. Because if 5 Man Grens are useless, no one's going to pick this commander.
+1
12 Mar 2021, 08:35 AM
#49
Posts: 1563
+1
Why, that g43 change was undoubtedly a necessary change. But do feel as there is a bit of malice here. Instead of changing stgs first and observing weather or not that makes VSL gren less potent(solve the problem) vs elites they removed their 10% ra bonus, nerfing them then actually solved the problem. And even though Sanders said the balance team would adjust if necessary they didn't even bother.
12 Mar 2021, 09:00 AM
#50
Posts: 857 | Subs: 2
I agree that the G43 nerf was needed but why also nerf the ra bonus? It's just a little bit too much.
12 Mar 2021, 09:13 AM
#51
Posts: 1289
Dude you can't expect to say BS and expect people to not show you attitude.
I see. Ok when I say "don't play the game" I mean you brought up a situation which only happens if just go afk.
You should ask that question to the balance team m8. They are one who designed it that way, can't help in an argument where I share the same opinion. But that is another terrible argument.
Its only a terrible argument because it doesnt fit with yours, wich leaves out everything except base costs. This paints the (incomplete) picture you believe is true.
Ost has no trouble dishing out damage, ost has a good collection of strong tw and early lv,s to help sort out lower hp on their inf. Even with doctrines making grens into tanky a move inf makes them op. The 5thm should be more about tankyness (as they do now) and less about dps because grens dps is not low nor the problem as a 4 men squad.
12 Mar 2021, 09:39 AM
#52
Posts: 1563
Its only a terrible argument because it doesnt fit with yours
Projecting much?
It's a shitty argument. i guess now you wouldn't mind if the mg was 220 mp right. Because it supports your argument.
12 Mar 2021, 18:23 PM
#53
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
It's not all that simple. The sgt has lower damage and is an auto weapon that means it's damage is more spread out compared to things like con_mosin's or gren_kar's work. DPS alone isn't really a good indication on how an engagement is gonna go.
The STG is all gravy though. If 4 Men Grens beat 6 Men Cons at long range then 5 Men Grens beat 7 Men Cons. DPS doesn't dictate an engagement (RNG does) but it's still a pretty good indicator of the average result. SO if STG has a higher DPS at mid-long range then by definition that means on average they'll perform better on average at those ranges than G43.
12 Mar 2021, 18:36 PM
#54
Posts: 1594
The STG is all gravy though. If 4 Men Grens beat 6 Men Cons at long range then 5 Men Grens beat 7 Men Cons. DPS doesn't dictate an engagement (RNG does) but it's still a pretty good indicator of the average result. SO if STG has a higher DPS at mid-long range then by definition that means on average they'll perform better on average at those ranges than G43.
Its perhaps worth considering that the 7man upgrade comes with a pretty sizable decrease in reinforcement cost, too, which helps make Conscripts incredibly cost efficient. Whether or not one unit "beats" another in a 1v1 isnt the whole story.
That said, I don't think the VSL changes have killed the upgrade, it still seems like it'll be quite good. The only upgrade I'd argue is bad for Grens is the G43 upgrade, which doesn't really give them anything worth having.
12 Mar 2021, 18:48 PM
#55
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The STG is all gravy though. If 4 Men Grens beat 6 Men Cons at long range then 5 Men Grens beat 7 Men Cons. DPS doesn't dictate an engagement (RNG does) but it's still a pretty good indicator of the average result. SO if STG has a higher DPS at mid-long range then by definition that means on average they'll perform better on average at those ranges than G43.
This not exactly correct and there are many variables.
Before the patch when I tested vet 3 Lmg grenadier would beat 7 mean conscripts in cover to cover max range but 5 men vet 3 grenadier would lose more fight than they would win.
That can be explained because the DPS drop of Lmg grenadier was less.
I have not tested since the patch but I would guess that this would be similar since 5 men grenadier lost RA and Conscripts Accuracy.Conscripts can close in to grenadier and win the fight.
12 Mar 2021, 18:55 PM
#56
Posts: 1594
This not exactly correct and there are many variables.
Before the patch when I tested vet 3 Lmg grenadier would beat 7 mean conscripts in cover to cover max range but 5 men vet 3 grenadier would lose more fight than they would win.
That can be explained because the DPS drop of Lmg grenadier was less.
I have not tested since the patch but I would guess that this would be similar since 5 men grenadier lost RA and Conscripts Accuracy.Conscripts can close in to grenadier and win the fight.
The best thing to do really would be to just record some tests, and demonstrate what you're saying.
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