Sandbags nerfed enough? Nope

I really disagree that OKW doesnt have an upperhand over those two in early game/mid. Do rifles fight well against volks early? yeah decently enough. Does that mean okw is just autolosing early game? not at all, because they have kubels, sturms and other supplemental units.

Thats the point. OKW early game fully relies on volks\stums\kubel or mix of those. Kubel is only good as long as there are SPs to constantly repair it and SPs are here to prevent volks from being just simply overruned by Rifles and to somewhat push IS out of cover or flank them, because volks cant do jack shit to IS.
Thats the main reason why you cant just slap sandbags to them, without changing anything else.

No mainline should have sandbags ... But as it stands, it completely nullifies map design and other game factors that have been addressed here.

Again out of 5 factions, only 3 have access to sandbags on mailine. Soviets are more less fine, because after all their sandbags can always be used by the enemy and cons arent long range inf, UKF objectively dont even need sandbags on tommies because their debuffs are long gone + now they have T0 engies.
But OKW is different story because out all factions, only they are right now arguably in need of sandbags.

if you want to buff volks RA by 10% or something to compensate, go for it.... To me, thats no excuse to make the game healthier, just give volks a bit better early game firepower if thats that big of a deal

Speaking of buffing volks, I think balance team stated that they are afraid of buffing volks, because of OKW vs Sov match up, which is indeed more or less balanced.

I really disagree that OKW doesnt have an upperhand over those two in early game/mid. Do rifles fight well against volks early? yeah decently enough. Does that mean okw is just autolosing early game? not at all, because they have kubels, sturms and other supplemental units. No mainline should have sandbags, if you want to buff volks RA by 10% or something to compensate, go for it. But as it stands, it completely nullifies map design and other game factors that have been addressed here.

It seems like we all agree sandbags on mainlines isnt good for the game or how it was meant to be played, but the hang up is happening with people that play one specific faction. To me, thats no excuse to make the game healthier, just give volks a bit better early game firepower if thats that big of a deal(which i really think it isnt, just use map cover like everyone else, yes this goes for cons too).

Yes, Rifles walk over Volksgrenadiers, they don't merely "fight well against them". The M1 Garand, when compared to the (volk) K98 has a (very significantly) better damage profile at any range up to 23, where Volks then eke a sub-0.1 DPS advantage up to 35. This ignores that Rifles also have better RA than Volks, however, which means Rifles ostensibly win at any range, and crush Volks flat close up . Volks 1-on-1 (Or any equivalent engagement) can only perform vs rifles if they force the rifles to close in on them from superior cover, and manage to take out a model or two before they reach them. This is why Volks currently have Sandbags, they do not fight efficiently without them. A "10% RA buff" isnt an equivalent exchange, and doesn't promote the same gameplan as current. As Gachi has mentioned, buffing Volksgrenadiers has the risk of ruining the OKW vs SOV matchup, which is generally pretty balanced.

To keep pace with USF infantry OKW must use Sturms, but especially in 1v1s Sturms cannot be in more places than one, and Sturms aren't something you can afford to build multiple of. They're expensive, take a lot of population, and dont scale to be effective enough in the lategame.

The Kubelwagen is also great, but is quite micro intensive, requires frequent tending to by Sturmpioneers (Who have other shit to do) and doesn't scale terribly well in combat terms (Though a Kubel in the mid/lategame is still valuable thanks to its speed, low population requirement, and ability to both cap and detect units)

UKF, OKW, and SOV can't simply have their mainline sandbags taken away without serious thought being done to adjusting their unit performance. OKW and SOV especially don't have overpowered mainline infantry that need to be made to perform worse. UKF arguably do, but their factional design is abysmal, they still crutch far too hard on Sections, and consequently they seriously need major, major changes. The problem with all of that is its a ton of work, and the Balance Team have limited time, resources, and permitted scope from Lelic.

As mentioned multiple other times, incidentally, OKW can't afford Sturms being their only source of Sandbags. There's a reason you don't see multiple Sturms in most games. They would need some new supplemental unit to assist in building cover if they even wanted to be on the same level as other factions in this regard.


Removing sandbags from mainlines is a great idea, they ought to be something engineers build. There is a lot of work to do before you can just up and make that change though.

Speaking of buffing volks, I think balance team stated that they are afraid of buffing volks, because of OKW vs Sov match up, which is indeed more or less balanced.

which is why vipper is right in that WFA allies need toned down. dominating from the word go with raw stats and then having the ability to double arm weapons that reduce the damage attrition from losing models and funneling more dps into enemy singular models is a recipe for disaster, regardless of cost.
volks also need a vet reworks as they haven't been spared the lash since they got gutted as a result of the equally ill thought out shrek.

perhaps on the whole, taking inspiration from vcoh where sandbags costed manpower might be a route... then at least having bags on every conceivable point may not be economic..

which is why vipper is right in that WFA allies need toned down. dominating from the word go with raw stats and then having the ability to double arm weapons that reduce the damage attrition from losing models and funneling more dps into enemy singular models is a recipe for disaster, regardless of cost.
volks also need a vet reworks as they haven't been spared the lash since they got gutted as a result of the equally ill thought out shrek.

perhaps on the whole, taking inspiration from vcoh where sandbags costed manpower might be a route... then at least having bags on every conceivable point may not be economic..

Easily said then done. Tonning down mid to late game is easy, but how you gonna tone down early game, where most of the problems are? USF one especially who dont have anything but rifles. UKF at least have engis\MG\LV to play with and really strong late game tanks, so potentially there are units to relocate power to.

USF have jack shit on the other hand all its power comes from snowballing.

which is why vipper is right in that WFA allies need toned down. dominating from the word go with raw stats and then having the ability to double arm weapons that reduce the damage attrition from losing models and funneling more dps into enemy singular models is a recipe for disaster, regardless of cost.
volks also need a vet reworks as they haven't been spared the lash since they got gutted as a result of the equally ill thought out shrek.

perhaps on the whole, taking inspiration from vcoh where sandbags costed manpower might be a route... then at least having bags on every conceivable point may not be economic..

We also need to remember ukf and usf dont have other strong inf wich come a little later down the line stock. In that regard volks and grens should be a bit weaker because sections and rifles plus all their upgrades need to be able to fight stronger inf then volks and grens,

I do agree however that they need toning down but we must just look at grens volks vs rifles and sections, both axis factions imo have a stronger range of viable supporting units in the early game.

I don't know why you all want to simply remove sandbag from mainline infantry when the major issue is putting sandbag in the middle of capping circles and disabling any real tactical play around it early game.

Just delay sandbag, on the first minutes of the game OKW is definitively not disadvantaged at all. They have sturmpio, kubel and Volks and they are all fine working together vs anything Allied faction can field on the first 4-5 minutes of the game.

There are many solutions to soft-delay sandbag.

1- Disabling capping and building altogether.
2- Putting sandbag on Volks and Tommies behind vet1.
3- Putting sandbag on volks and Tommies behind tech tree.
4- Adding a cost fee for all sandbags/tank trap, manpower or munition. 20 manpower, 10 munition or so.

And at least 1 radical change: forbidding construction of sandbag/tank traps on Capping areas.

Any one of those changes would make the early game much better and not just a zug zug rush my unit into the capping circle and start asap building a cover and capping at the same time because why not.

2- Putting sandbag on Volks and Tommies behind vet1.
3- Putting sandbag on volks and Tommies behind tech tree.

But not Conscripts?

But not Conscripts?

Conscripts aren't exactly super oppressing at long range contrary to these 2.

Volks oppressive at long range, interesting

Conscripts aren't exactly super oppressing at long range contrary to these 2.

What do Volks "Oppress"? Conscripts? It certainly isnt Riflemen or Sections.

I don't understand why sandbags haven't been disabled in capture points like demo's. My pet hatred is people building them on the point, even through this would mean they would just build them on the rim of the point it's better than nothing.

Easily said then done. Tonning down mid to late game is easy, but how you gonna tone down early game, where most of the problems are? USF one especially who dont have anything but rifles. UKF at least have engis\MG\LV to play with and really strong late game tanks, so potentially there are units to relocate power to.

USF have jack shit on the other hand all its power comes from snowballing.

Simply make it so volks can actually win at range. There is really. Zero reason for rifles to be so formidable at range, and grens suffer from this as well.
Combine that with giving them a standard target size of 1 might be edge enough for volks to fight them a bit more effectively. Combine with the needed volks vet rework and it may be sufficient.

We also need to remember ukf and usf dont have other strong inf wich come a little later down the line stock. In that regard volks and grens should be a bit weaker because sections and rifles plus all their upgrades need to be able to fight stronger inf then volks and grens,

I do agree however that they need toning down but we must just look at grens volks vs rifles and sections, both axis factions imo have a stronger range of viable supporting units in the early game.

usf has officers. at the moment they are nothing more than rifles with a thompson, but they could be more.
also, rifles scale great with weapon upgrades, ideally, imo, they would only have 1 slot until vet 3 but allow officers and elite infantry to keep their multiple slots. that fixes the massive jump in power and allows grens and volks some time to get vet that isnt just from farming casualties.
this makes officers the pgrens and sturm/obers of the faction. the teeth, the "elite" infantry, it also makes em unique. atm they are so unexciting and unneeded they just added a feature to throw them away....

rifles will be stronger than the axis infantry, as they are currently, just not jumping tin power as dramatically. they retain their mobility and flexibility afforded to them via the garand, but not the massive jump of double BARs.


tommies are their own mess and the bane of the UKF. until they come round that you cant make a unit be cost effective at a price point and then have a global upgrade that improves them flat out by at least 25% there can be no balance for the faction. as they get rid of more of the balancing factors in place to offset tommies power things will only get worse.

usf has officers. at the moment they are nothing more than rifles with a thompson, but they could be more.
also, rifles scale great with weapon upgrades, ideally, imo, they would only have 1 slot until vet 3 but allow officers and elite infantry to keep their multiple slots. that fixes the massive jump in power and allows grens and volks some time to get vet that isnt just from farming casualties.
this makes officers the pgrens and sturm/obers of the faction. the teeth, the "elite" infantry, it also makes em unique. atm they are so unexciting and unneeded they just added a feature to throw them away....

rifles will be stronger than the axis infantry, as they are currently, just not jumping tin power as dramatically. they retain their mobility and flexibility afforded to them via the garand, but not the massive jump of double BARs.


tommies are their own mess and the bane of the UKF. until they come round that you cant make a unit be cost effective at a price point and then have a global upgrade that improves them flat out by at least 25% there can be no balance for the faction. as they get rid of more of the balancing factors in place to offset tommies power things will only get worse.

Rifles single upgrade till vet3 is a interesting solution. I think having major tech unlocked should lift the vet 3 restriction or give vet reductions. to make loosing/replacing rifles less punishing.

I am amazed that sections are not added or part of the hammer and anvil system.
4 men but double slots when going chrurchill and 5 men single slot when going comet for sections, maybe loose the out cover debuff at 5 men. And imo medic upgrade should take a slot

usf has officers. at the moment they are nothing more than rifles with a thompson, but they could be more.
also, rifles scale great with weapon upgrades, ideally, imo, they would only have 1 slot until vet 3 but allow officers and elite infantry to keep their multiple slots. that fixes the massive jump in power and allows grens and volks some time to get vet that isnt just from farming casualties.
this makes officers the pgrens and sturm/obers of the faction. the teeth, the "elite" infantry, it also makes em unique. atm they are so unexciting and unneeded they just added a feature to throw them away....

rifles will be stronger than the axis infantry, as they are currently, just not jumping tin power as dramatically. they retain their mobility and flexibility afforded to them via the garand, but not the massive jump of double BARs.


tommies are their own mess and the bane of the UKF. until they come round that you cant make a unit be cost effective at a price point and then have a global upgrade that improves them flat out by at least 25% there can be no balance for the faction. as they get rid of more of the balancing factors in place to offset tommies power things will only get worse.

GrenLMG > Rifle+1BAR, available around 4-5 minutes
PZgren > Rifle+1BAR, hit the field at 4-5 minute
Obers > Rifle+1BAR, hit the field a 8-9 minute

That's a terrible idea to say the less.

GrenLMG > Rifle+1BAR, available around 4-5 minutes
PZgren > Rifle+1BAR, hit the field at 4-5 minute
Obers > Rifle+1BAR, hit the field a 8-9 minute

That's a terrible idea to say the less.

This is exactly the point. That way rifles can't just brute force down every single axis squad. They will have to maneuver. They have the flexibility for this, and if you reread, officers will retain 2 slots, meaning as the enemy can't have thier high efficiency squads in every engagement, neither can usf.
USF tech has also been redesigned to allow for 50 cal support so rifles themselves no longer need to carry the entire game.


@Mrcarmine I agree with all you've said

This is exactly the point. That way rifles can't just brute force down every single axis squad. They will have to maneuver. They have the flexibility for this, and if you reread, officers will retain 2 slots, meaning as the enemy can't have thier high efficiency squads in every engagement, neither can usf.
USF tech has also been redesigned to allow for 50 cal support so rifles themselves no longer need to carry the entire game.


@Mrcarmine I agree with all you've said

But... rifles can't brute force down squads.
Early game vs OKW: Volks win long range, rifles win every other range. Hence the existence of spio to help tip engagements by careful positioning.
Early game vs OST: MG42 can lock down, force USF to tech nades for smoke. Grens can easily trade long range but lose every other range

In mid game you certainly won't have double bars. Maybe on one rifle squad. For everything else, PGrens and obers do the trick. Not to mention that once obers reach vet2, it's game over until double bars. And even then you need to be the first one to fire (eg. enemy running toward you).

I can't really see how a 280 MP mainline is so much more OP than 240 and 260. You're previewing scenarios like the USF player just techs racks and spends all muni on bars. Rifles are the strongest mainline, being strong in both close and medium range, whereas other mainlines are strong in only one range. Tommies, volks and grens long range, conscripts close range.

What game are you all playing? Saying things like "Rifles carry USF" is preposterous.

This is exactly the point. That way rifles can't just brute force down every single axis squad. They will have to maneuver. They have the flexibility for this, and if you reread, officers will retain 2 slots, meaning as the enemy can't have thier high efficiency squads in every engagement, neither can usf.
USF tech has also been redesigned to allow for 50 cal support so rifles themselves no longer need to carry the entire game.


@Mrcarmine I agree with all you've said

And that's already the case so why would you lock 2 slots behind vet3. USF players don't shit munition after breakfast.

Simply make it so volks can actually win at range. There is really. Zero reason for rifles to be so formidable at range, and grens suffer from this as well.
Combine that with giving them a standard target size of 1 might be edge enough for volks to fight them a bit more effectively. Combine with the needed volks vet rework and it may be sufficient.

Maybe, just maybe, if balance team and relic werent so stubborn about moving doctrinal units to non doc rosters, we wouldnt have the issue of needing to tone rifles down without unraveling the faction. Maybe if you could build cav rifles, or rangers, or any other elite inf, you could move some of the power from early game to mid and generally have a better go at balancing.

No new models are needed, no new units are needed, you only have to move some things from commander to non doc roster and balance would be a lot easier.


But I know, this community would rather never do that and instead complain endlessly that no one can ever get balance right in this game.

Honestly, a mod should be made w no sandbags and tests should be run with mainline inf having no sandbags, see how the games feel, ill bet people will be surprised at how much better it would be