I'd like to keep Stuka Dive Bomb out of common use, as it violates the general rules of off-maps and impacts players with specific hardware set-ups differently. It doesn't use smoke effects, requires directional sound, and effects control points all of which are unique to SDB.
Give a different off-map for howitzer control that doesnt punish poor/slow players as much. Maybe light artillery, or some kind of bombing run.
Stuka dive bomb to be added in another commander
1 Mar 2021, 22:24 PM
#21
Posts: 486
1 Mar 2021, 22:48 PM
#22
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
First about howitzers:
...
For
Ostheeer try the Stuka, Stuka frag and the Railway
soviet try the PTAB
USF try the TOT, 155 from WC51 and the IR Pathfinders
UKF try precision, Air S. OP., Concentrated fire operation.
1 Mar 2021, 23:12 PM
#23
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
First about howitzers:
- Ost has 2 (Edit: sorry there are 3) out of 22 commanders with 100% destruction plus 1 with a decent chance
- OKW has 4 out of 9 commanders with 100% destruction
- Soviet has 2 out of 22 commanders with 100% destruction
- UKF has 1 out of 9 commanders with 100% destruction
- USF has 1 out of 9 commanders with 100% destruction plus 1 with a decent chance
So Ost is just about average here, only faction which stands out is OKW. So there is no reason for me to rework only Ostheer at this point.
I think you got the numbers wrong.
OH:
Railway artillery: 2 (first shot guaranteed 100% accuracy)
Fragmentation bomb: 3 with say like 15/20% chance to destroy it, most of the time it's decrewed with like 10/20% HP left
Soviet:
PTAB: not reliable at all. Too much scatter. But sometimes (5-10%) it destroys it or damages the weapon to 0% HP but crew is still alive.
UKF:
Precision Barrage: 1
Concentrated Fire operation: 1
Air supremacy: 1
Concentrarion barrage: unreliable but will get it decrewed and highly damaged (similar to OH fragmentation)
Then there's plenty of other abilities which will get the weapon decrewed but not destroyed.
And as Vipper mention, there's also some units which can call offmap but those can have a harder time reaching objective.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
1 Mar 2021, 23:26 PM
#24
Posts: 1954
I think Zeroing Arty still obliterates any emplacement, even if they're braced.
It does, but it should since you have to maintain LOS. I haven't seen anyone use it on emplacements in awhile.
Close the pocket also wipes emplacements. It's also hard to pull off.
2 Mar 2021, 00:43 AM
#25
Posts: 1594
OH Vanilla doesn't have access to a Tiger commander.
SU doesn't have access to a ISU
Those are far more unique than an offmap which 99% of the time is used to nuke a single thing.
I mean, really, the only actually unique thing about the Stuke Divebomb is the lack of warning smoke... though the Jericho Trumpets are more than enough warning
Units (and even some abilities) are a lot more interesting than any offmap, so I'd agree that a Tiger or an ISU is much preferable to the Stuka. I still fucking hate facing the ISU without an Elefant or Jagdtiger though.
2 Mar 2021, 05:51 AM
#26
Posts: 1563
OH Vanilla doesn't have access to a Tiger commander.
SU doesn't have access to a ISU
look if we went that rout we'd be here all day. Ambush training, Jaeger G43 package, AI strafe, supply drops and more are all unique and locked behind a pay/grind wall. Why take away a vanilla commander ability out right and not give it back. That a really stupid way to look at this
2 Mar 2021, 07:42 AM
#27
Posts: 919
I think you got the wrong numbers,
Don't think so. I was talking about 100% guaranted kills only (not decrewing).
OH:
Railway artillery: 2 (first shot guaranteed 100% accuracy)
Fragmentation bomb: 3 with say like 15/20% chance to destroy it, most of the time it's decrewed with like 10/20% HP leftreaching objective.
OH = 3 plus 1 decent chance
OH has Stuka dive bomb on three commanders = 100% destroyed
Railway artillery sometimes hits slightly next to the howitzer only decrewing it, but chances are high for destroying it. Seems to me it still has some scatter on the first hit. Thats the one commander with the decent chance I talked about.
Soviet:
PTAB: not reliable at all. Too much scatter. But sometimes (5-10%) it destroys it or damages the weapon to 0% HP but crew is still alive.
Soviet = 2
Soviet has IL2-Bombing run on 2 commanders = 100% destroyed
UKF:
Precision Barrage: 1
Concentrated Fire operation: 1
Air supremacy: 1
Concentrarion barrage: unreliable but will get it decrewed and highly damaged (similar to OH fragmentation)
UKF = 1 (and yeah, here I missed the decent one in form of Concentration Artillery Operations)
Only Precision barrage will get you a 100% guaranted kill.
Then there's plenty of other abilities which will get the weapon decrewed but not destroyed.
Yes
And as Vipper mention, there's also some units which can call offmap but those can have a harder time reaching objective.
Depending on gamemode, map size and map design you can swap "harder" with "impossible". So we shouldn't include them as a counter to howitzers, more something like a counter to static frontline positions.
2 Mar 2021, 08:02 AM
#28
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
Railway artillery sometimes hits slightly next to the howitzer only decrewing it, but chances are high for destroying it. Seems to me it still has some scatter on the first hit. Thats the one commander with the decent chance I talked about.
...
Railway artillery has 1 shot (think the last one that has not scatter) if I remember correctly. It should always take out a howitzer if aimed on it.
2 Mar 2021, 09:05 AM
#29
Posts: 919
Railway artillery has 1 shot (think the last one that has not scatter) if I remember correctly. It should always take out a howitzer if aimed on it.
Thx, then we would have (first number = commander with offmap with 100% kill guarantee / second number = total commanders):
OH: 4 / 22
OKW: 4 / 9
Sov: 2 / 22
UKF 2 / 9 (since it has a copy of Railway Artillery)
USF 1 / 9 (since 240mm has no aimed hit as far as I know)
Edit: Prepatch OH had 1 more, Soviet had 2 more. I do think this should be reverted by granting the removed ability to other less attractive commanders to hamper artillery slugfest in 3vs3 and 4vs4. Maybe even giving OH / Sov / UKF and USF one commander more with the ability to kill howitzers with offmap. In the end this abilities are still too expensive to spam them, so it shouldn't be a problem.
2 Mar 2021, 09:25 AM
#30
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Thx, then we would have (first number = commander with offmap with 100% kill guarantee / second number = total commanders):
OH: 4 / 22
OKW: 4 / 9
Sov: 2 / 22
UKF 2 / 9 (since it has a copy of Railway Artillery)
USF 1 / 9 (since 240mm has no aimed hit as far as I know)
Edit: Prepatch OH had 1 more, Soviet had 2 more. I do think this should be reverted by granting the removed ability to other less attractive commanders to hamper artillery slugfest in 3vs3 and 4vs4. Maybe even giving OH / Sov / UKF and USF one commander more with the ability to kill howitzers with offmap. In the end this abilities are still too expensive to spam them, so it shouldn't be a problem.
TOT should be moved away from Priest to another commander and probably have a price increase since it one of the cheapest counters...
2 Mar 2021, 09:45 AM
#31
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Railway artillery has 1 shot (think the last one that has not scatter) if I remember correctly. It should always take out a howitzer if aimed on it.
It is the first one that goes dead center.
2 Mar 2021, 10:05 AM
#32
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
It is the first one that goes dead center.
Thanks for the clarification.
2 Mar 2021, 10:15 AM
#33
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
it's indeed the 1st shell of railway arty that has low scatter and will land within a 5 m circle around the cast location, while the other two have a 20 m scatter radius. it also has a smaller AoE than the last two shots, making it totally possible to miss some crew models if they're spaced a bit wider or to deal less than the critical hp damage to the gun itself
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
2 Mar 2021, 15:17 PM
#34
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
I was also saying which are guaranteed killing. Player input not using the ability dead center or aligned is not considered.
OH: there are 2 commanders with Railway artillery. Festung and Osttruppen
Use this site (coh2.win) for commander abilities. Just click on an ability and it will show all commanders with it.
UKF: all the 3 commanders that i listed will kill a Howitzer. The only unreliable one which is much better than fragmentation bombing is Concentration barrage. I made some test way back in the past, but your chances improve if you can keep vision on it.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105234/il2-precision-strike-seems-uncounterable/page/7#post_id818865
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
4 Mar 2021, 00:19 AM
#35
Posts: 919
I was also saying which are guaranteed killing. Player input not using the ability dead center or aligned is not considered.
OH: there are 2 commanders with Railway artillery. Festung and Osttruppen
Use this site (coh2.win) for commander abilities. Just click on an ability and it will show all commanders with it.
Yeah, thx for that link. I overlooked one of the railway artilleries. That adds up to five guaranted kills with the three stuka dive bombs. Seems Soviets are on the backfoot here by loosing two of their IL-2 bombing runs. Ostheer lost 1 out of 6, Soviet 2 out of 4. All other factions have a better saturation with howitzer killing abilities. That should be adressed soon with the next patch.
UKF: all the 3 commanders that i listed will kill a Howitzer. The only unreliable one which is much better than fragmentation bombing is Concentration barrage. I made some test way back in the past, but your chances improve if you can keep vision on it.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105234/il2-precision-strike-seems-uncounterable/page/7#post_id818865
Are you sure Air Supremacy kills always after it was nerfed? The bombs seem to scatter random over a large area.
The thing about the vision is true, but it is not very realistic to keep constant sigth on a howitzer. it is much more realistic that a plane flies over and you trigger the ability the moment you get sight. The plane can loose sight or get shoot down. I always test with FoW by building a howitzer, giving it to AI and using a plane plus ability. That way Concentration barrage will decrew most of the time as it seems.
4 Mar 2021, 00:57 AM
#36
Posts: 1954
Are you sure Air Supremacy kills always after it was nerfed? The bombs seem to scatter random over a large area.
I haven't had Supremacy fail to kill a howitzer in the 4-5 times I've tried it.
4 Mar 2021, 01:07 AM
#37
Posts: 919
I haven't had Supremacy fail to kill a howitzer in the 4-5 times I've tried it.
Thx for your comment. Yeah, I tried it myself a moment ago a couple of times and it destroyed it every time. Maybe I didn't know because I play this commander wy to rarely. While comamndos are good it is one of this bad designed commanders which has 4 of 5 comamnder abilities with munition cost. you are better of taking one of the other two commanders with Commandos, they do have a better mix of abilities.
4 Mar 2021, 01:09 AM
#38
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
But it is the most efficinet means though. But thats not the point. All other faction have a heavy off map in the commander they are given.
Sovs have it in combined arms army, USF has time on target, UKF pretty much always has that and OKW has panzer commander upgrade.
Mortar HT Incendiary Rounds would like a word with you. Though I'll admit that adding the bomb to another commander is worth an idea during the commander revamp as an option
4 Mar 2021, 01:53 AM
#39
Posts: 1954
Thx for your comment. Yeah, I tried it myself a moment ago a couple of times and it destroyed it every time. Maybe I didn't know because I play this commander wy to rarely. While comamndos are good it is one of this bad designed commanders which has 4 of 5 comamnder abilities with munition cost. you are better of taking one of the other two commanders with Commandos, they do have a better mix of abilities.
I agree with your comments on the design of the commander. You can't use most of the abilities because assault and Supremacy cost 310muni's combined. Supremacy needs to have the long cooldown and cost a lot because of how potent it is.
4 Mar 2021, 05:16 AM
#40
Posts: 1563
Mortar HT can get countered by mortar pit(well it used to before don't know if it will now) though. I like the incendiary on mortar HT i liked it even more when it was 5 round than 3 cause the stupid balance dipshits decided that OKW should get a flame mortar barrage and ost can't have better shit than okw.
Mortar HT Incendiary Rounds would like a word with you. Though I'll admit that adding the bomb to another commander is worth an idea during the commander revamp as an option
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