UKF needs rebalance in 4x4

I know this will sound like salt from a axis player but i will say my piece anyway.

So here goes.

1 - why does base UKF infantary have so many abilities
- they can heal(even with the 45 cost now it's just too good for the cost considering they heal in a area with just a click and the Ostheer heal is only one squad at a time and has a ''cast'' time and costs 10 each time);
-can throw a barrage (sure at cost but it is a good barrage);
-can get 2 lmgs (while i do not know the exact stats, they sure do kill my 1 lmg granadier faster);
-can bolster to 5 man(ostheer can too , but only with a command lock);
-recieve cover damage bonus(i mean why?again don't know exact stats but i think their base damge is higher already than most other squads);

2- emplacements are a pain to deal with without fire commanders like fuerstorm or with 251 mortar halftack(again this is not 2x2 where a good push can take out a position) because the brit can just brace for stukas and can outrigth kill mortar teams or at guns that are targeting it while their/or their allies troops keep pressuring you and with a 250 initial cost they come even faster not to mention they somehow have a heavy barrage now;

3-By the time a axis player gets to the fuel point, most the times the brit player is already(with the point taken or being taken) there with lmg and a universal carrier even with the 5 fuel cost it has now.And you may ask what is op about that? the brit LMG keeps your troops away, the universal carrier keeps your LMG back unless the brit misplays and takes a faust or stays in front of it. So you are just forced to give early fuel advantage to the brit most of the time

4- everybody talks about the emplacement commander being op but that is easy to deal with, the real cancer is the royal artillery one for the following reasons
-The flares migth as well be a maphack(it shows the entire frontline for only 60 ammo) very hard to deal with if the brit player has any competent allies to also make use of the vision
-the barrage is just click to remove a team weapon from a position for 100 ammo which frees all you IFs to carry heals since you don't exatly need the other upgrade now
-the valentine was nerfed thank god, so i wont mention it
-the sexton is ok, but combined with the flares it can punish hard any team weapons and foward bases.
-the perimeter overwatch is in a good place now that the duration was reduced, but again one of those click and forget abilities.

5- UKF tanks too have too many abilities, the biggest agressor of this is the Comet
-has smoke
-has white phosphorus
-has crew grenade
-has warspeed
while it's counterpart the panther only has blitz at vet 1 and a smoke with a command pick and can only kill tanks reliably and is easily counterable with any of the allies anti-tank tanks(fireflys and the like) due to inferior range

So what i feel like playing as Ostheer in 4x4 is that i need to pick a commander just to counter a single aspect of the brit faction, like maybe i pick infantary commander so my granadiers can at least compete with bolstered IFs, or maybe i pick mortar half track so i can burn the emplacements,or maybe i get a howitzer, but if i pick any of those i can't pick the elefant which is a must in 4x4 against massed fireflys and the like. while the brit can do all that even with no commander.It just feels very hard to play against brits while i don't get the same feeling against the other 2 allies.

So that is my rant, thank you to anyone who read all that and please share what you think about my points and what could be done to balance things out( i would say it is not just a matter of nerfing the UKF but giving a buff to ostheer).

For us UKF and USF players, especially this patch, is our golden age. Sorry friend, but you must accept the reality, the time where the axis could swarm Panthers and comeback in late is over.

Playing against an organized team of Brit players dedicated to playing as cancerously as possible is such a slog, and this patch has only made it worse now with the all the buffs to Brits (especially the Churchill buff), the faction arguably least in need of help in 4v4s. Every unit they have has so much utility. 4 players' worth of constant coordinated barrage is so frustrating to deal with.

inb4 "4v4s will never be balanced so stop complaining." BS, I'm going to complain considering it's the most popular mode.

Playing against an organized team of Brit players dedicated to playing as cancerously as possible is such a slog, and this patch has only made it worse now with the all the buffs to Brits (especially the Churchill buff), the faction arguably least in need of help in 4v4s. Every unit they have has so much utility. 4 players' worth of constant coordinated barrage is so frustrating to deal with.

inb4 "4v4s will never be balanced so stop complaining." BS, I'm going to complain considering it's the most popular mode.

most popular mode cause u dont have to have skill and rely on teamates to help you yes? Also most popular gamemode cause people don't like to get sweaty yes???

BTW playing against any kind of organised team is going to be a challenge, don't make it seem like its a faction problem, it's a people problem.

also BTW, imagine playing random teamgames , get some friends or teamates will ya guys? there r literally TONS of coh2 servers, and ther's also something called, making friends

I know this will sound like salt from a axis player but i will say my piece anyway.

So here goes.

1 - why does base UKF infantary have so many abilities
- they can heal(even with the 45 cost now it's just too good for the cost considering they heal in a area with just a click and the Ostheer heal is only one squad at a time and has a ''cast'' time and costs 10 each time);
-can throw a barrage (sure at cost but it is a good barrage);
-can get 2 lmgs (while i do not know the exact stats, they sure do kill my 1 lmg granadier faster);
-can bolster to 5 man(ostheer can too , but only with a command lock);
-recieve cover damage bonus(i mean why?again don't know exact stats but i think their base damge is higher already than most other squads);

2- emplacements are a pain to deal with without fire commanders like fuerstorm or with 251 mortar halftack(again this is not 2x2 where a good push can take out a position) because the brit can just brace for stukas and can outrigth kill mortar teams or at guns that are targeting it while their/or their allies troops keep pressuring you and with a 250 initial cost they come even faster not to mention they somehow have a heavy barrage now;

3-By the time a axis player gets to the fuel point, most the times the brit player is already(with the point taken or being taken) there with lmg and a universal carrier even with the 5 fuel cost it has now.And you may ask what is op about that? the brit LMG keeps your troops away, the universal carrier keeps your LMG back unless the brit misplays and takes a faust or stays in front of it. So you are just forced to give early fuel advantage to the brit most of the time

4- everybody talks about the emplacement commander being op but that is easy to deal with, the real cancer is the royal artillery one for the following reasons
-The flares migth as well be a maphack(it shows the entire frontline for only 60 ammo) very hard to deal with if the brit player has any competent allies to also make use of the vision
-the barrage is just click to remove a team weapon from a position for 100 ammo which frees all you IFs to carry heals since you don't exatly need the other upgrade now
-the valentine was nerfed thank god, so i wont mention it
-the sexton is ok, but combined with the flares it can punish hard any team weapons and foward bases.
-the perimeter overwatch is in a good place now that the duration was reduced, but again one of those click and forget abilities.

5- UKF tanks too have too many abilities, the biggest agressor of this is the Comet
-has smoke
-has white phosphorus
-has crew grenade
-has warspeed
while it's counterpart the panther only has blitz at vet 1 and a smoke with a command pick and can only kill tanks reliably and is easily counterable with any of the allies anti-tank tanks(fireflys and the like) due to inferior range

So what i feel like playing as Ostheer in 4x4 is that i need to pick a commander just to counter a single aspect of the brit faction, like maybe i pick infantary commander so my granadiers can at least compete with bolstered IFs, or maybe i pick mortar half track so i can burn the emplacements,or maybe i get a howitzer, but if i pick any of those i can't pick the elefant which is a must in 4x4 against massed fireflys and the like. while the brit can do all that even with no commander.It just feels very hard to play against brits while i don't get the same feeling against the other 2 allies.

So that is my rant, thank you to anyone who read all that and please share what you think about my points and what could be done to balance things out( i would say it is not just a matter of nerfing the UKF but giving a buff to ostheer).

What level of teamgame are you at? All the problems u mentioned are like literally the base and the core design and mechanics of the british army. It's not like its a new change to the faction. So u know like shouldnt u know how to counter it by now?

After playing with the new patch I think they are mostly fine, but the mortar emplacement changes are ridiculous. Once the heavy barrage is unlocked you can hit half the map with a 250MP emplacement. At minimum they should put the heavy barrage on a shared cooldown with brace to give the axis some counter play.

Thats the reason I pleaded for giving non-doc land mattress to brits as the mortar pit ability was tested. This discussion was so predictable. Just nerf it out of the game until we have brits with no somehow longer ranged indirect fire options again unless you go for land mattress or artillery commander...

What level of teamgame are you at? All the problems u mentioned are like literally the base and the core design and mechanics of the british army. It's not like its a new change to the faction. So u know like shouldnt u know how to counter it by now?

I not saying i don`t know how to counter them /there is no way to counter , what i am saying is i need to get a specific thing to counter 1 aspect of a particular faction, and by ``thing`` i mean a command lock and not like ``they have a mg , so i get a mortar``, while the base UKF can counter most of what the axis have regardless of command pick aside from maybe the elefant and howitzer.

And some things you just can`t counter like mentioned the flare/barrage combo since you can`t shoot down the flares and everyone on the enemy team gets the vision and can call their offmaps on you.

And maybe core designs like a bunch of abilities on one unit should be revised , imagine if the panther could kill infantary and tanks reliably, throw grenades from it`s hatch , shoot smoke , white phosphorus and go on blitz(which it already has) all without any command pick? same thing with with the normal granadiers, imagine if they could bolster to 5 man on tech 1, heal on a area(for just a one time ammo cost) or call a barrage,got a damage cover bonus,throw granades(which they already can), able to get 2 MG42s, at tech 3 also got a Satchel charge and still keep the snare(which is the only thing the IFs lack).

I not saying i don`t know how to counter them /there is no way to counter , what i am saying is i need to get a specific thing to counter 1 aspect of a particular faction, and by ``thing`` i mean a command lock and not like ``they have a mg , so i get a mortar``, while the base UKF can counter most of what the axis have regardless of command pick aside from maybe the elefant and howitzer.

And some things you just can`t counter like mentioned the flare/barrage combo since you can`t shoot down the flares and everyone on the enemy team gets the vision and can call their offmaps on you.

And maybe core designs like a bunch of abilities on one unit should be revised , imagine if the panther could kill infantary and tanks reliably, throw grenades from it`s hatch , shoot smoke , white phosphorus and go on blitz(which it already has) all without any command pick? same thing with with the normal granadiers, imagine if they could bolster to 5 man on tech 1, heal on a area(for just a one time ammo cost) or call a barrage,got a damage cover bonus,throw granades(which they already can), able to get 2 MG42s, at tech 3 also got a Satchel charge and still keep the snare(which is the only thing the IFs lack).

With OKW you just need non-doc double ISG if you encounter heavy emplacement builds (maybe even a third one if its really a heavy build). Emplacements are dead meat from that moment on.
Ostheer is more tricky in early game, because the only reliable counter if you really can't push is the mortar halftrack. But it is really worth it. While Sperhead gives you versatile game options Festungs Support Doctrine will crush emplacement builds with leFH totally later on. As you mentioned Stuka in your inital post. Don't use it versus emplacements but on surrounding support units, that way you should be able to push emplacements.

UKF and OKW commander flare will be removed with the next commander patch if you ask me. I do think its on their to do list already. Uncounterable recon is undeniable a bad thing.

Panther is quite good at killing infantry. It seems to me better than you may think. Imo it is the best non limited tank in the game. Great speed, durability, range and penetration with a good chance to overrun infantry. Very strong Vet-Bonus in addition. On top of it all you can get doctrinal instant smoke. Sorry, but Panther is a bad example. I would pick it over the Comet if I had to choose.

Edit: The problem of the Comet is the existence of the Panther, if Comet wouldn't have to face Panther it would be magnificent.

Panther is quite good at killing infantry. It seems to me better than you may think. Imo it is the best non limited tank in the game. Great speed, durability, range and penetration with a good chance to overrun infantry. Very strong Vet-Bonus in addition. On top of it all you can get doctrinal instant smoke. Sorry, but Panther is a bad example. I would pick it over the Comet if I had to choose.

Edit: The problem of the Comet is the existence of the Panther, if Comet wouldn't have to face Panther it would be magnificent.

At this point I feel like the Panther's pintle MG upgrade should be removed and the main gun given tank destroyer AI damage/accuracy so it can be completely rebalanced as a heavy tank destroyer.

At this point I feel like the Panther's pintle MG upgrade should be removed and the main gun given tank destroyer AI damage/accuracy so it can be completely rebalanced as a heavy tank destroyer.

So... just remove MG and leave everything else as is since forever?

So... just remove MG and leave everything else as is since forever?

Sure. Maybe some better accuracy on the move but that's it.

I know this will sound like salt from a axis player but i will say my piece anyway.

So here goes.

1 - why does base UKF infantary have so many abilities
- they can heal(even with the 45 cost now it's just too good for the cost considering they heal in a area with just a click and the Ostheer heal is only one squad at a time and has a ''cast'' time and costs 10 each time);
-can throw a barrage (sure at cost but it is a good barrage);
-can get 2 lmgs (while i do not know the exact stats, they sure do kill my 1 lmg granadier faster);
-can bolster to 5 man(ostheer can too , but only with a command lock);
-recieve cover damage bonus(i mean why?again don't know exact stats but i think their base damge is higher already than most other squads);

2- emplacements are a pain to deal with without fire commanders like fuerstorm or with 251 mortar halftack

3-By the time a axis player gets to the fuel point, most the times the brit player is already(with the point taken or being taken) there with lmg and a universal carrier even with the 5 fuel cost it has now.

4- everybody talks about the emplacement commander being op but that is easy to deal with, the real cancer is the royal artillery one for the following reasons
-The flares migth as well be a maphack(it shows the entire frontline for only 60 ammo) very hard to deal

So what i feel like playing as Ostheer in 4x4 is that i need to pick a commander just to counter a single aspect of the brit faction, like maybe i pick infantary commander so my granadiers can at least compete with bolstered IFs, or maybe i pick mortar half track so i can burn the emplacements,or maybe i get a howitzer, but if i pick any of those i can't pick the elefant which is a must in 4x4 against massed fireflys and the like. while the brit can do all that even with no commander.It just feels very hard to play against brits while i don't get the same feeling against the other 2 allies.

So that is my rant, thank you to anyone who read all that and please share what you think about my points and what could be done to balance things out( i would say it is not just a matter of nerfing the UKF but giving a buff to ostheer).

You have some valid points, but it does seem like a lot of salt. Try playing UKF a bit.

As to some of your points:

1) UKF infantry is really expensive, you can only afford to get 2-3 in a team game. That makes it difficult to keep them as an infantry screen.

3) If a UKF player is at the fuel with a section, UC, and vickers by the time you get there then there is something seriously wrong with what you're doing.

4) Royal arty isn't all that great. The flares don't normally show trucks or howitzers so you still need a Vet1 ALO for recon. The off-map kills arty maybe 1/3 of the time, at best, after spending 50 muni for the recon and 100 for the off-map.

As for your point about being forced to pick a commander, if your UKF opponent doesn't do that, they'll lose most of the time. I sometimes go emplacements knowing that they've going to get wiped, but hoping to force Ost to get MHT's so that I don't have to face an elephant. Even then, I'm also hoping that they overcommit to arty and don't get enough other AT so that I can win the attrition war using Churchills.

You have some valid points, but it does seem like a lot of salt. Try playing UKF a bit.

As to some of your points:

1) UKF infantry is really expensive, you can only afford to get 2-3 in a team game. That makes it difficult to keep them as an infantry screen.

3) If a UKF player is at the fuel with a section, UC, and vickers by the time you get there then there is something seriously wrong with what you're doing.

4) Royal arty isn't all that great. The flares don't normally show trucks or howitzers so you still need a Vet1 ALO for recon. The off-map kills arty maybe 1/3 of the time, at best, after spending 50 muni for the recon and 100 for the off-map.

As for your point about being forced to pick a commander, if your UKF opponent doesn't do that, they'll lose most of the time. I sometimes go emplacements knowing that they've going to get wiped, but hoping to force Ost to get MHT's so that I don't have to face an elephant. Even then, I'm also hoping that they overcommit to arty and don't get enough other AT so that I can win the attrition war using Churchills.

1) as i said, i don't know if it is a matter of making the UKF IFs weaker, but the normal ostheer granadiers fell very weak compared to them in most games.

2) yes if you are OKW you can get at fuel on same time as a IFs with your pioneers, and with a kubel or volks close behind provided you have the same relative spawn, but again with Ostheer, provided you don't go ass grens or osttruppen(which got nerfed timing wise) by the time you get there with pioneers and your MG42 the brit is most of the times already there with the vickers and inital IF plus one or with the UC

3)i think it is that great since you can't counter it, the same way you can't counter the OKW eye of sauron flare and like you said i will gladly take that 1/3 change , since i can do both the recon and kill at the same time for 160 ammo while most other combos to kill art require 260 ammo

4)As for you last point, my opnion that is just it, if your emplacements work they deny a area/inflict bleed to your opponent, and if they get killed, they also worked since you forced a command pick or overfocus on arty which you can deal it. all for no command pick of your own like maybe a defensive doctrine focused on emplacents.

But yes maybe you are rigth and i do need to play UKF more.

1) as i said, i don't know if it is a matter of making the UKF IFs weaker, but the normal ostheer granadiers fell very weak compared to them in most games.

2) yes if you are OKW you can get at fuel on same time as a IFs with your pioneers, and with a kubel or volks close behind provided you have the same relative spawn, but again with Ostheer, provided you don't go ass grens or osttruppen(which got nerfed timing wise) by the time you get there with pioneers and your MG42 the brit is most of the times already there with the vickers and inital IF plus one or with the UC

3)i think it is that great since you can't counter it, the same way you can't counter the OKW eye of sauron flare and like you said i will gladly take that 1/3 change , since i can do both the recon and kill at the same time for 160 ammo while most other combos to kill art require 260 ammo

4)As for you last point, my opnion that is just it, if your emplacements work they deny a area/inflict bleed to your opponent, and if they get killed, they also worked since you forced a command pick or overfocus on arty which you can deal it. all for no command pick of your own like maybe a defensive doctrine focused on emplacents.

But yes maybe you are rigth and i do need to play UKF more.

I know what your saying in that Grens feel like the least durable mainline. I always get two of them in a 4v4 but expect to lose one or both of them and always replace with Pgrens. Having to stop to fire the lmg gives them the same disadvantages as Sections, so they just feel weaker unless set up in cover. I've tried the German Infantry Doctrine in 4's. The VSL upgrade makes them a lot more durable but the doctrine is lacking counters needed in 4v4's.

The VSL upgrade makes them a lot more durable but the doctrine is lacking counters needed in 4v4's.

The frag bombs alone make it worth it.

Of course, against players that aren't noobs the doctrine doesn't offer much late game.

I know this will sound like salt from a axis player but i will say my piece anyway.

So here goes.

1 - why does base UKF infantary have so many abilities
- they can heal(even with the 45 cost now it's just too good for the cost considering they heal in a area with just a click and the Ostheer heal is only one squad at a time and has a ''cast'' time and costs 10 each time);
-can throw a barrage (sure at cost but it is a good barrage);
-can get 2 lmgs (while i do not know the exact stats, they sure do kill my 1 lmg granadier faster);
-can bolster to 5 man(ostheer can too , but only with a command lock);
-recieve cover damage bonus(i mean why?again don't know exact stats but i think their base damge is higher already than most other squads);

2- emplacements are a pain to deal with without fire commanders like fuerstorm or with 251 mortar halftack(again this is not 2x2 where a good push can take out a position) because the brit can just brace for stukas and can outrigth kill mortar teams or at guns that are targeting it while their/or their allies troops keep pressuring you and with a 250 initial cost they come even faster not to mention they somehow have a heavy barrage now;

3-By the time a axis player gets to the fuel point, most the times the brit player is already(with the point taken or being taken) there with lmg and a universal carrier even with the 5 fuel cost it has now.And you may ask what is op about that? the brit LMG keeps your troops away, the universal carrier keeps your LMG back unless the brit misplays and takes a faust or stays in front of it. So you are just forced to give early fuel advantage to the brit most of the time

4- everybody talks about the emplacement commander being op but that is easy to deal with, the real cancer is the royal artillery one for the following reasons
-The flares migth as well be a maphack(it shows the entire frontline for only 60 ammo) very hard to deal with if the brit player has any competent allies to also make use of the vision
-the barrage is just click to remove a team weapon from a position for 100 ammo which frees all you IFs to carry heals since you don't exatly need the other upgrade now
-the valentine was nerfed thank god, so i wont mention it
-the sexton is ok, but combined with the flares it can punish hard any team weapons and foward bases.
-the perimeter overwatch is in a good place now that the duration was reduced, but again one of those click and forget abilities.

5- UKF tanks too have too many abilities, the biggest agressor of this is the Comet
-has smoke
-has white phosphorus
-has crew grenade
-has warspeed
while it's counterpart the panther only has blitz at vet 1 and a smoke with a command pick and can only kill tanks reliably and is easily counterable with any of the allies anti-tank tanks(fireflys and the like) due to inferior range

So what i feel like playing as Ostheer in 4x4 is that i need to pick a commander just to counter a single aspect of the brit faction, like maybe i pick infantary commander so my granadiers can at least compete with bolstered IFs, or maybe i pick mortar half track so i can burn the emplacements,or maybe i get a howitzer, but if i pick any of those i can't pick the elefant which is a must in 4x4 against massed fireflys and the like. while the brit can do all that even with no commander.It just feels very hard to play against brits while i don't get the same feeling against the other 2 allies.

So that is my rant, thank you to anyone who read all that and please share what you think about my points and what could be done to balance things out( i would say it is not just a matter of nerfing the UKF but giving a buff to ostheer).

Unfortunately this is a recurring theme among the poor design . Brits were frankly laughably OP on release . How it could of been released like that really makes me think there was something dodgy going on, It was clear as day. After multiple patches things have gotten better but the stupid philosophy of giving Brits every ability under the sun and being good at everything with virtually no drawbacks (the comet is a textbook example of this) while it's axis counterparts have 1 or 2 abilities along with major weaknesses still continue to this day.

I think every unit needs to be examined properly , there is no need for British infantry to have a silly amount of healing options as well as a cheap muni cost for on the go healing with no support. There is no need for the comet to be able to throw grenades, AND have white phosphorus AND have smoke AND have warspeed AND have excellent Ai AND it can also 1vs1 a Panther and still win at times. It should have access to 1 or 2 abilities not 4 or 5 . Give the units a weakness..

Even with the recent patch the trend continues .. It is completely unnecessary to be able to build bofors AND the AC . Hammer and Anvil should be completely separate choices ..

I play mainly allies in 4v4 (I know I know)

That said. Royal Artillery vision flares need to be replaced with something. The commander is too much of a no brainer.

Every time I play against a UKF they invariably pick Royal Artillery, it's just such a misery having the entire frontline under near constant flares.

Spec Ops flares ofc need to go too.

I play mainly allies in 4v4 (I know I know)

That said. Royal Artillery vision flares need to be replaced with something. The commander is too much of a no brainer.

Every time I play against a UKF they invariably pick Royal Artillery, it's just such a misery having the entire frontline under near constant flares.

Spec Ops flares ofc need to go too.

Royal arty flares could probably follow suit with the spec ops flares where they increase LOS of units nearby. Seems like a pretty solid direction for flares tbh. Force multiplier without being outright incredible

Every time I play against a UKF they invariably pick Royal Artillery, it's just such a misery having the entire frontline under near constant flares.

Spec Ops flares ofc need to go too.

Yes, if you go against 2 brits with Royal the flares seen endless.