Let's talk pop cap

I'm not. 2 (or at most 3) engineers that repair / cap the map and don't trade models with enemy composition don't bleed. With a balanced composition you already need 2 engineers on top of the rest of the inf army.

Vehicles are the reason a balanced composition has two or more. You don't need any engineers if you don't build vehicles. At best you'd need one for mine-sweeping, and minelaying, and thats more of a utility/playstyle choice than absolute necessity.

Capping, and supporting is just a nice early game perk of building multiple engineers, but is wholly secondary to to tech and repairing. No USF player would ever build RE's if they weren't free, and had minesweepers except for the rare meme-build.

Vehicles are the reason a balanced composition has two or more. You don't need any engineers if you don't build vehicles. At best you'd need one for mine-sweeping, and minelaying, and thats more of a utility/playstyle choice than absolute necessity.

Capping, and supporting is just a nice early game perk of building multiple engineers, but is wholly secondary to to tech and repairing. No USF player would ever build RE's if they weren't free, and had minesweepers except for the rare meme-build.

USF also doesn't need REs because their vehicles contain their own repair crews. This is the main reason they don't bother making any, generally. "If they didnt have minesweepers USF wouldn't build them" is also kind of a pointless statement.

Other factions generally want two Engineers for various reasons beyond simply repairing vehicles. OST and SOV want two, one for sweeping mines, and another for Flamethrower duty (The latter being very highly prized by SOV), and both to build wire and lay mines. In OST's case also to build cover.

UKF likely want two as they are the units with the faction's snares, and they are also used to build and maintain various UKF structures. (They're also servicable CqC troops)

OKW would want two if they weren't so expensive (MP and Pop wise) as they're very combat-capable, and are the faction's infantry-borne AT. Though they also have the MechHQ for additional repairs.

USF also doesn't need REs because their vehicles contain their own repair crews. This is the main reason they don't bother making any, generally. "If they didnt have minesweepers USF wouldn't build them" is also kind of a pointless statement.

Other factions generally want two Engineers for various reasons beyond simply repairing vehicles. OST and SOV want two, one for sweeping mines, and another for Flamethrower duty (The latter being very highly prized by SOV), and both to build wire and lay mines. In OST's case also to build cover.

UKF likely want two as they are the units with the faction's snares, and they are also used to build and maintain various UKF structures. (They're also servicable CqC troops)

OKW would want two if they weren't so expensive (MP and Pop wise) as they're very combat-capable, and are the faction's infantry-borne AT. Though they also have the MechHQ for additional repairs.

So just so we're clear: the two EFA armies need at least two engineer squads to be competitive, while only one of the WFA has even a weak case for a second squad of engineers?

I really loved reading this. I will play devil's advocate. Why do you want arbitrary number of 125 pop cap? I want 1000 pop cap to capitalize on my flow! What would be your answer?

No, the pop cap should be changed to 131. It is the seventh prime number over 100 and the first one that is the same forwards and back, which would decrease bias against dyslexic players.

So just so we're clear: the two EFA armies need at least two engineer squads to be competitive, while only one of the WFA has even a weak case for a second squad of engineers?

UKF's case is hardly weak. Sappers are an extremely valuable unit even beside the fact they're used to repair vehicles.

Only USF can do "without" engineers, and even then this isnt really the case, given that Rear Echelon build green cover, barbed wire, and Mines for USF. OKW would love to have two, but their population cost makes this non-viable.


The point is that you haven't really made a cogent point here. Your "Solutions" to this "problem" regarding popcap don't solve anything, and the examples and anecdotes you keep dreaming up aren't realistic in the slightest.

The point is that you haven't really made a cogent point here. Your "Solutions" to this "problem" regarding popcap don't solve anything, and the examples and anecdotes you keep dreaming up aren't realistic in the slightest.

Strummingbird said EFAs need 10-15 pop of engineers to be competitive. Your response is that USF need 0, OKW need 7, and brits might use 10, yet I'm the one failing to make a cogent point in the thread whose thesis is that EFAs are limited by poor pop utilization?

Strummingbird said EFAs need 10-15 pop of engineers to be competitive. Your response is that USF need 0, OKW need 8, and brits might use 10, yet I'm the one failing to make a cogent point in the thread whose thesis is that EFAs are limited by poor pop utilization?

He said this in response to you making the absurd statement that factions only have engineers to repair their vehicles, and that this should somehow be "Added on" to the population cost of vehicles, despite the fact that engineer units, as I've already explained to you, have myriad uses beyond repairing.

You haven't provided any sort of real suggestion to fix the issues you're suggesting exist, other than to just increase or remove the population cap, which does NOTHING to solve any of these issues you outline.

Are you actually just trolling, or what?

He said this in response to you making the absurd statement that factions only have engineers to repair their vehicles, and that this should somehow be "Added on" to the population cost of vehicles, despite the fact that engineer units, as I've already explained to you, have myriad uses beyond repairing.

You haven't provided any sort of real suggestion to fix the issues you're suggesting exist, other than to just increase or remove the population cap, which does NOTHING to solve any of these issues you outline.

Are you actually just trolling, or what?

I've never seen a serious game without engineers using the repair ability. I have seen plenty of serious games where all these other abilities aren't used. Hence repair is a primary use, the other abilities are secondary.

This is all subjective however and isn't really worth seriously arguing now that you've outright admitted that EFAs need anywhere from infinite to 1.5x the engineering pop as WFAs.

Cool cope post tho.

I've never seen a serious game without engineers using the repair ability. I have seen plenty of serious games where all these other abilities aren't used. Hence repair is a primary use, the other abilities are secondary.

This is all subjective however and isn't really worth seriously arguing now that you've outright admitted that EFAs need anywhere from infinite to 1.5x the engineering pop as WFAs.

Cool cope post tho.

Cute, how does increasing population caps by a flat amount solve this alleged issue?

Cute, how does increasing population caps by a flat amount solve this alleged issue?

15/100=.15
15/125=.12

Wow increasing pop by 25 decreases the necessary engineering pop by 3%, and that's not even a huge proportion of 'necessary' pop!

Keep in mind you're free to constructively add your own possible solutions instead of shitting on my thread.

15/100=.15
15/125=.12

Wow increasing pop by 25 decreases the necessary engineering pop by 3%, and that's not even a huge proportion of 'necessary' pop!

Keep in mind you're free to constructively add your own possible solutions instead of shitting on my thread.

Except literally every single other unit is affected in exactly the same way, resulting in zero benefit, as you will have the same proportion of units.

Your solution isnt very good, face it. I've already stated the actual solution to the issue earlier in the thread.

Except literally every single other unit is affected in exactly the same way, resulting in zero benefit, as you will have the same proportion of units.

If two players have 4500 manpower to spend:

How many engis can player 1 buy at 100 pop-cap?
How many sturm pios can player 2 buy at 100 pop-cap?

How many engis can player 1 buy at 125 pop-cap?
How many sturm pios can player 2 buy at 125 pop-cap?

Please give percent differences for both players from 100 pop to 125 pop.

If two players have 4500 manpower to spend:

How many engis can player 1 buy at 100 pop-cap?
How many sturm pios can player 2 buy at 100 pop-cap?

How many engis can player 1 buy at 125 pop-cap?
How many sturm pios can player 2 buy at 125 pop-cap?

Please give percent differences for both players from 100 pop to 125 pop.

Irrelevant, and a completely pointless scenario. Players do not magically have 4500 MP, and do not fill their population with engineers or sturmpioneers. You are failing to understand the actual problem.

You are sticking a bandaid on the problem rather than actually coming up with a real solution. Increasing popcap instead of doing the intelligent thing and rebalancing population costs for various units does not fix issues. You merely make currently population-efficient factions even stronger, and population inefficient factions gain a negligible benefit, and further: A 125 popcap army drains MP even faster than a 100 popcap army.

I'm not sure why you're dead-set on this ill-conceived "Just increase popcap" idea, and I'm not entertaining your meaningless fantasy scenarios.

Strummingbird said EFAs need 10-15 pop of engineers to be competitive. Your response is that USF need 0, OKW need 7, and brits might use 10, yet I'm the one failing to make a cogent point in the thread whose thesis is that EFAs are limited by poor pop utilization?

thats an issue with EFA factional design and getting power crept, not pop cap. balance requires limitations. WFA engineers can do more so even same pop means the WFA come out ahead:
all WFA engineers can sling AT,
2/3 get extra models along the way,
2/3 get weapon racks
2/3 are not even required to heal armour
sappers have super repair+ extra lmg upgrade path from anvil
sturms are always able to fight and can heal units and put away their sweepers (EFA cant even combine upgrades with their sweepers, but thank goodness sturms can get shreks and their sweeper that they can put away again)
sappers can snare and destroy cover

EFA engineers have been left in the cold for some time, which is rough especially because if you lose them, you actually HAVE to replace them to tech up if you have not already

really all EFA engies have going for the is cost and a flamethrower, which the others all lack. pioneers have sandbags, the extra los and a threatening weapon up close
CE are the cheapest unit in the game

this isnt really a population issue this is an engineer utility/scaling issue. as tempting as it is to try and forge balance around...how many you can get to fill your popcap, because that's a totally reasonable metric....

Pop rebalance would be great, and with enough resources the ideal solution.

The balance team doesn't have a ton of resources though, and rebalancing 5-10 units for a relatively rare scenario is kinda hard to justify. Years have been spent balancing units around their current pop and cost values. Playing around with the actual pop-costs will mean playing around with stats also. Merely raising the pop-cap is a simple solution that solves 90% of the problem for a scenario that happens in only maybe 5% of games.

If you think pop-balance is a problem, but don't like my solution, feel free to lobby the balance team on rebalancing these 5-10 problem units.

Pop rebalance would be great, and with enough resources the ideal solution.

The balance team doesn't have a ton of resources though, and rebalancing 5-10 units for a relatively rare scenario is kinda hard to justify. Years have been spent balancing units around their current pop and cost values. Playing around with the actual pop-costs will mean playing around with stats also. Merely raising the pop-cap is a simple solution that solves 90% of the problem for a scenario that happens in only maybe 5% of games.

If you think pop-balance is a problem, but don't like my solution, feel free to lobby the balance team on rebalancing these 5-10 problem units.

Again, your "solution" is not worth doing, even if we couldnt get a population rebalance. it isnt going to help anything, and will instead introduce its own problems.

A population rebalance is really not a massive undertaking, and would be the correct solution.

I would be happy with a -1 Pop for all factions

Again, your "solution" is not worth doing, even if we couldnt get a population rebalance. it isnt going to help anything, and will instead introduce its own problems.

A population rebalance is really not a massive undertaking, and would be the correct solution.

You can't even entertain a simple math problem, but you want to appeal to complexity to shit on my solution? You're such a coward.

If you're not going to substantiate your complexity claim with at least more words than my simplified example you're just threadshitting, and I'm going to ask you to leave my thread and make another.

If pop-rebalance was such an easy thing then why did the balance team standardize mainlines at 7 pop 5 years ago, and haven't really touched them since?

Wow...

You can't even entertain a simple math problem, but you want to appeal to complexity to shit on my solution? You're such a coward.

If you're not going to substantiate your complexity claim with at least more words than my simplified example you're just threadshitting, and I'm going to ask you to leave my thread and make another.

If pop-rebalance was such an easy thing then why did the balance team standardize mainlines at 7 pop 5 years ago, and haven't really touched them since?

"How many Combat Engineers can i buy for 4500 MP in 100pop vs 125 pop compared to Sturmpioneers" isnt a meaningful maths problem, that's why I'm not bothering to entertain it. Particularly as your "problem" seems to imply that CE pop space is "too much" when compared to Sturmpioneers, when the latter have been reduced in pop cost this very patch due to being overpriced, and existing in a faction that is known for having population issues (Particularly in comparison to SOV, which is known for quite the opposite)

They presumably haven't really touched mainlines since standardising them as standardising the pop cost of mainlines made their relative balance easier, and so fulfilled its goal. What sort of example is this meant to be? Which Mainlines are severely under/over-popped in your mind?

Also:

And I'm going to ask you to leave my thread and make another.

Lmao. Make me.