Zis-3 as an AT gun

I don't think the same 10 people playing the same tournaments doing the same 3 things and screeching about broken things that got broken thanks to them are doing the game any good.
There also won't be a team games balance pass because even then relic was still alive they didn't care about team games and this has been the case since CoH1.
The previous point also goes for this one - there won't be a CoH3 because there isn't a relic anymore.

Those people are "doing the game good", for the reasons I've already stated.

Yes, there is still a Relic. They're working on AoE4 as we speak.

I don't think the same 10 people playing the same tournaments doing the same 3 things and screeching about broken things that got broken thanks to them are doing the game any good.
There also won't be a team games balance pass because even then relic was still alive they didn't care about team games and this has been the case since CoH1.
The previous point also goes for this one - there won't be a CoH3 because there isn't a relic anymore.

The same top 5 players in super smash bros melee have been around for over a decade in a game that has never had a balance patch, dlc or official online support yet melee remains one of the most popular competitive fighters to this day.
Smash is also a game where you could have a 4 player free for all or 2v2 which most casuals(and most players as a result) played, but competitive play is 1v1 and for good reason.

As for relic not existing anymore, the heck you on about? Relic is still around, they just aren't owned by THQ anymore.

If we were just looking at units in a vacuum I'd agree that the Zis is op but considering surrounding armies I have a hard time thinking more than the currently planned nerf is a good idea.

Soviet early game is still weak outside maybe 1v1 and the Zis offers a much-needed tool to deal with MGs and units parked in green cover.

The planned nerf seems good to me, not sure what all this debate is about. Some of the comparisons made (like Brummbär and Zis) make no sense. Nerfing the barrage also doesn't lead Soviet players to get more Zis to make up for it. Not sure what logic is behind this argument.

If we were just looking at units in a vacuum I'd agree that the Zis is op but considering surrounding armies I have a hard time thinking more than the currently planned nerf is a good idea.

Soviet early game is still weak outside maybe 1v1 and the Zis offers a much-needed tool to deal with MGs and units parked in green cover.

The planned nerf seems good to me, not sure what all this debate is about. Some of the comparisons made (like Brummbär and Zis) make no sense. Nerfing the barrage also doesn't lead Soviet players to get more Zis to make up for it. Not sure what logic is behind this argument.

What exactly do Soviets lack?

What exactly do Soviets lack?

A grenade.
An infantry upgrade that comes before medium tanks (and thus generating value in that time)
Multiple weapon slots.
An mp only suppression platform that can reliably stop infantry from walking straight up the center of its arc while it shots.
An AT option that isn't "shot it in the face" of different flavors

Not to say that some of these are not OK, as soviet have alternatives-like the zis barrage instead of a nade...

A grenade.
An infantry upgrade that comes before medium tanks (and thus generating value in that time)
Multiple weapon slots.
An mp only suppression platform that can reliably stop infantry from walking straight up the center of its arc while it shots.
An AT option that isn't "shot it in the face" of different flavors

Not to say that some of these are not OK, as soviet have alternatives-like the zis barrage instead of a nade...

They have all of these things

They have all of these things

It's not so much about Soviets lacking things it's about simply not having the same early game strength as the 4 other factions.

This might not be the case in 1v1 but in the other game modes Soviets early game is just weak and WAY easier to counter than UKF/USF.

It's not so much about Soviets lacking things it's about simply not having the same early game strength as the 4 other factions.

This might not be the case in 1v1 but in the other game modes Soviets early game is just weak and WAY easier to counter than UKF/USF.

Well there's the problem, i exclusively Play 1v1 🤣

An mp only suppression platform that can reliably stop infantry from walking straight up the center of its arc while it shots.

Honestly I still think this idea that the Maxim's suppression is weak to the point that you can literally walk through the centre of its arc is a being a little hyperbolic. Unless you're a vetted Obersoldaten squad walking through yellow cover you're still going to be suppressed before you can reasonably be expected to have done much damage (Assuming it isnt in red cover or something). This is even assuming you know the MG is there before it starts firing, which isnt always the case for OKW (But often is for OST, thanks to Pioneer sight.)

Ostensibly its intended to be screened heavily by conscripts in any case, and pretty much any delay they can cause will mean you do indeed get suppressed.

The maxim is certainly worse than the other MGs in the game, but it still does its job, and honestly I find MGs of any sort rather annoying to deal with early on as OKW (2v2).

Now if only the maxim was priced at its preformance level. A good example is the ost p4 and t34, the t34 is an overall worse tank and is also priced accordingly.
The maxim is a far worse mg then the mg 42 and needs more babysitting as well, it is overpriced for its preformance and impact. The only thing needed is the maxims price to be dropped back to 240 mp.

Honestly I still think this idea that the Maxim's suppression is weak to the point that you can literally walk through the centre of its arc is a being a little hyperbolic. Unless you're a vetted Obersoldaten squad walking through yellow cover you're still going to be suppressed before you can reasonably be expected to have done much damage (Assuming it isnt in red cover or something). This is even assuming you know the MG is there before it starts firing, which isnt always the case for OKW (But often is for OST, thanks to Pioneer sight.)

Ostensibly its intended to be screened heavily by conscripts in any case, and pretty much any delay they can cause will mean you do indeed get suppressed.

The maxim is certainly worse than the other MGs in the game, but it still does its job, and honestly I find MGs of any sort rather annoying to deal with early on as OKW (2v2).

i have very much seen and done myself to the maxim a great disservice by walkinging up and nading it. you arnt going to get up in its guts to bayonet it, but you dont have to. if you can head on nade it you have won most times due to the deathloop or in the case of volks, the flame nade which you gotta move as opposed to the burst damage.
ive also seen units walking across the width of the arc (granted this was at max range) without a care in the world. its the only mg in the game where its arc isnt a complete no go zone and taking the chance to rush it CAN pay off against an already set up maxim

its off topic but id like to see it with a narrower arc and longer range. it already wins against other mgs in MG duels because of the crew and suppression modifiers, but the increased range would allow it time to actually suppress enemies if spotted for without making it attack moveable (because it cant shoot further if it cant see further. this would also allow it properly support cons without being in the line of fire for deathlooping. it would do wonders for its support capacity without strengthening its ability to operate on its own. being further removed from the front would be a pro worthy of offsetting its abysmal defensive capabilities otherwise and justify it costing the same as an mg42

that or a damage mode/suppression mode that has a long set up so that it can be used defensively if set up in advance (without the need to feed it munitions) or be an aggressive damage dealer that it was supposed to be in t2. sustained fire could continue to increase burst length which would benifit both modes

i have very much seen and done myself to the maxim a great disservice by walkinging up and nading it. you arnt going to get up in its guts to bayonet it, but you dont have to. if you can head on nade it you have won most times due to the deathloop or in the case of volks, the flame nade which you gotta move as opposed to the burst damage.
ive also seen units walking across the width of the arc (granted this was at max range) without a care in the world. its the only mg in the game where its arc isnt a complete no go zone and taking the chance to rush it CAN pay off against an already set up maxim

its off topic but id like to see it with a narrower arc and longer range. it already wins against other mgs in MG duels because of the crew and suppression modifiers, but the increased range would allow it time to actually suppress enemies if spotted for without making it attack moveable (because it cant shoot further if it cant see further. this would also allow it properly support cons without being in the line of fire for deathlooping. it would do wonders for its support capacity without strengthening its ability to operate on its own. being further removed from the front would be a pro worthy of offsetting its abysmal defensive capabilities otherwise and justify it costing the same as an mg42

that or a damage mode/suppression mode that has a long set up so that it can be used defensively if set up in advance (without the need to feed it munitions) or be an aggressive damage dealer that it was supposed to be in t2. sustained fire could continue to increase burst length which would benifit both modes

I don't think you're able to nade a Maxim directly from the front without at least being suppressed, again, unless walking through yellow cover (maybe). Given that it has six men, assuming they aren't all bunched in yellow cover themselves, you'll be killing two/three models at best, even with the Panzergren bundle. Vetted squads (multiple, generally, not single squads) might be able to deathloop it from the front, but I don't think this is something that reasonably happens early game without the Maxim being exposed and/or it being flanked.

The Volk flamenade is more an incentive for the Maxim to move, certainly, but you don't have access to that until your truck is produced. Even at that point, without supporting fire, the maxim can still just move away a little bit and resetup before your Volks are able to come out of suppression, so without other squads nearby this isnt exactly a huge deal, surely? If there ARE other squads nearby, they can simply flank the damn thing to begin with.

I feel like a lot of these hypothetical scenarios assume too many variables to be perfect, really. I guess I'll have to keep a better eye on Maxim performance in the various games I've seen to really try and see if this is really the case in practice.

The main realistic scenario that I notice the Maxim's lower suppression being a REAL issue is when you have two squads on either side of its arc attempting to flank it. An MG42 is likely able to suppress one, and switch over and suppress the other before either can leave the arc, whereas the maxim is unlikely to suppress both. (This is also compounded by the lower angle of the arc to begin with.)

All Machineguns suffer from being less useful as the game progresses due to significantly increased infantry damage output, the prevalence of both explosive weapons and yellow cover. Axis squads usually having better long-range DPS compounds this for the Maxim, along with its deathloop issue (Though this is mostly for retreats).

The Maxim does already have two "modes" it can be in, which are currently governed by whether it is in cover or not. Those animations could certainly be repurposed into the gun having two "states", one taking some extra time to set up, and having a significantly slower teardown, in exchange for improved suppression/burst length (And maybe even arc? It would possibly be becoming too good at that point), allowing the Maxim to be a better defensive MG. This would probably be better than the current "Suppressive fire" munitions ability, that is timed and requires a reload. The fact you would be able to see at a glance what mode the Maxim is in is definitely a nice bonus, too.

Whether or not the "mobile" state would need to have its suppression reduced in exchange for this "emplaced" state having higher suppression is another question, and would probably require testing.

I wonder how hard it would be to make this as a mod to test out?

One thing that need to change in zis barrage (and some other weapons) is the damage to ambient buildings. The damage is simply too high.

Is there a single stat or value on any allied unit that is not "too high" for you?

I dunno, being able to delete wooden buildings (like the one on Crossroads) from 60 range for 35 munitions does seem as though it might be a little too much damage, especially given how quickly these shells are fired (Even with the new patch). The damage the ZIS can put out to ambient buildings seems overly high given the unit's early timing and its role. A vet 0 ZIS does a little less than a quarter the HP of medium-sized brick buildings, and takes the one on Crossroads down to critical health in just two barrages.

It's able to put out more damage to a garrison, and faster, than a mortar, while also still being an AT gun, and there's no particular reason it should be able to do this.

Can't you provide an actual argument rather than you and vipper constantly bickering fruitlessly? Maybe there is a need for the ZIS to have that sort of damage output vs ambient buildings, but I'd like to know if there is. It does more damage to an ambient building than a stuka does (Dependent on the length of the building, of course)

I dunno, being able to delete wooden buildings (like the one on Crossroads) from 60 range for 35 munitions does seem as though it might be a little too much damage, especially given how quickly these shells are fired (Even with the new patch). The damage the ZIS can put out to ambient buildings seems overly high given the unit's early timing and its role. A vet 0 ZIS does a little less than a quarter the HP of medium-sized brick buildings, and takes the one on Crossroads down to critical health in just two barrages.

It's able to put out more damage to a garrison, and faster, than a mortar, while also still being an AT gun, and there's no particular reason it should be able to do this.

Can't you provide an actual argument rather than you and vipper constantly bickering fruitlessly? Maybe there is a need for the ZIS to have that sort of damage output vs ambient buildings, but I'd like to know if there is. It does more damage to an ambient building than a stuka does (Dependent on the length of the building, of course)

I'm fine with taking away Zis gun ability if Raketen ability to retreat and occupy house also being taken away as well. Give Zis-3 camo with 1st shot guarantee pen then.

I'm fine with taking away Zis gun ability if Raketen ability to retreat and occupy house also being taken away as well. Give Zis-3 camo with 1st shot guarantee pen then.

Who mentioned taking away the ZIS gun's barrage?

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ive definetly seen the maxim get frontally flame naded more times than i can count, part of the problem with that is the speed and range of the throw, but that doesnt make it any better.

i dont want to pull this thread into a maxim thread, but the maxim falls short in basicly every metric at every point in the game, save soley for durability, which is in part offset by the deathloop. the fact that it costs the same as the mg42 AND has a 160mp unlock first is a travesty

for the multiple modes, i too was thinking if the different stances would be perfect for the different modes. imo the offensive mode shouldnt suppress at all, then it could be allowed to be mobile again. popping into defensive mode should force a reload and take a second or so longer to set up. not sure about arcs, start with the current one assuming it can actually stop infantry in that cone i would be happy...

basically:
offensive-
fast set up/tear down, maybe even as fast as the old maxim!
no suppression
early game DPS unit, the penals of t2

defensive-
performance sort of like the mg34 but with a smaller arc (and higher cost)
at least as slow as the mg34

swapping modes would require reload
sustained fire could become a vet1 ability again since the nit could suppress in its defensive mode. sustained fire would boost its capabilities in both modes by increasing burst length

All Machineguns suffer from being less useful as the game progresses due to significantly increased infantry damage output, the prevalence of both explosive weapons and yellow cover. Axis squads usually having better long-range DPS compounds this for the Maxim, along with its deathloop issue (Though this is mostly for retreats).

I just want to add that the problem is that the base time to suppress is low. If it takes around slightly more than 1s to suppress at far range for all MGs, then when you add light cover + vet, it should be slightly bit more than 2s (0.5 Light cover modifier should mean double time + the increased suppression recovery modifier).
The maxim takes around 3/4s base at far and it feels like an eternity when light cover is involved.

NOTE: values taken from memory and just in case i took a look at Stein's spreadsheet as general reference.

I just want to add that the problem is that the base time to suppress is low. If it takes around slightly more than 1s to suppress at far range for all MGs, then when you add light cover + vet, it should be slightly bit more than 2s (0.5 Light cover modifier should mean double time + the increased suppression recovery modifier).
The maxim takes around 3/4s base at far and it feels like an eternity when light cover is involved.

NOTE: values taken from memory and just in case i took a look at Stein's spreadsheet as general reference.

https://coh2.serealia.ca/ is apparently a more reliable resource than Stein's sheets, and shows some rather interesting statistics. I'm not sure how or if they differ from Stein's though.

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