Zis-3 as an AT gun

Jump back to quoted post10 Feb 2021, 11:43 AMHannibal

Neither ZiS nor SU76 have anything to do with the Brummbar. Such is mentioning the SU76 being an assault gun as a response to Esxile's claim. It simply has nothing to do with the discussion.



There are multiple ways to balance abilities, but tying them to cost alone creates heavy differences between modes.
Making abilities powerful and expensive will lead to strange cheese tactics, making them weak and cheap might make them feel useless and not worth the micro effort.
The damage the ZiS barrage does is in order for 35-ish munition in my opinion. I would not screw around with that too much since it feels in line with other abilities. If the issue is spamability, CD might be the way to go.

Jump back to quoted post10 Feb 2021, 08:22 AMTygrys

Well done, you just contradicted yourself. You yourself say it relies on luck and no, it doesn't do "fantastic damage". When was the last time you played Soviets and used the ZiS? Because I have a feeling like you haven't at all if you're saying what you're saying.

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2021, 21:09 PMPip

I mean, this is taken into consideration, isnt it? Conscripts are an utility squad that trades favourably with axis infantry, particularly once it gets the 7-man upgrade, and vets up. They're not intended as a burst damage/focus fire squad, they're there to take points and make the enemy bleed hard trying to get them back.

which falls off dramatically when the enemy gets weapon upgrades, like 3 min into the game from their first techs while the soviet counterpart comes with their final tier. even then, you cant simply utility youre enemy to death- this idea that you can has been the bane of conscripts from days old. their utility has to be coupled with killing power elsewhere, in this case, the zis.

Centralised DPS is less an issue for SOV due to merge, and they even already have units (Guards, who are admittedly doctrinal) to fulfil that function. In any case, Conscripts are an exceedingly good infantry squad, with a lot going for it.
centralized dps is king in this gameis huge and bursting down models is what makes and breaks engagements, for example, if tommies do not kill 2 models of a sturm squad before they close, tommies lose to sturms with no cover attacking into tommies with green. when you start adding vet durability to both sides and then concentrated dps to one, the side without loses out.

and killing isnt the thing they have going for them, they have other units to do that. take away the ability for other units to do that and there is nothing to do that. cons are there to be a present enough threat to tar pit enemies while other units deal actual damage. eneough of a threat they cant be ignored but forced off easy enough if focused.


The zis is marginally worse at AT, sure, but it is also more survivable and has the incredibly valuable Barrage. Making the Barrage less effective than it is now is unlikely to make the unit useless or overpriced, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

the barrage is getting) nerfed. the follow up shells come much slower than they did before. im not overstating the ability at all, i simply understand why its necessary and dont think making the zis into a shittier pak is a good idea for the faction that doesn't even have a grenade in their core lineup. the barrage serves a purpose within the faction and removing it requires adjustments elsewhere

I'm pretty sure the ISU-152 is an anti-tank vehicle, and the HE shells are the thing that people complain about... not the AP shells. Reminds me of another unit, actually.

the isu is not and never ever in its entire existence in game or real life been an AT unit. it has ALWAYS been an AI unit first and foremost. the fact that it could engage tanks IRL was a reult of the huge caliber of gun and in game it serves to keep its performance and price in line because there is no way to have a ~250 fuel only AI unit remotely balanced. by having AT it eats up some of the "points" that go into cost effeciency and keeps its price high enough and its AI low enough that its palpable


I'm pretty sure it hasn't been suggested that the Barrage is being "gotten rid of", at least not meaningfully by anyone with the ability to make that so.
locking it behind vet is as good as and would throw off the balance in place and certainly require buffs to the zis and elsewhere in the faction.
What's being suggested (and being implemented in the Balance Patch) is a nerf to the Barrage to make it less oppressive. It doesn't need to be oppressive to be an useful unit or ability.

exactly, there is already a nerf in place, ive been operating under the assumption that people feel that that is not enough (thus a new thread complaining about something that is already being addressed)

Jump back to quoted post10 Feb 2021, 13:26 PMEsxile

The same way you can spam grenades on late game when floating on munition or whatever other ability in fact.
One Zis can't spam its barrage everywhere in the map because its still a clunky unit to move that also need to be available to counter tanks. I maintain what I said the problem occurs when you got two of them as per meta and then: or you got a windows frame to use both of them on a single location for a devastating effect, or one of them while de second is kept a bit further to protect it from tanks flanking it.

IMO if you start nerfing the CD you'll basically make it way worst to use as single unit and enforce people to build two of them to overcome the CD nerf.

Jump back to quoted post10 Feb 2021, 13:26 PMEsxile

On a side note, isn't possible for the moderation to speak with Vipper about his semantic pedantic attitude. Honeslty should we always lose so much time and effort to bear with its semantic arguments on every topic like him making the SU-76 the equivalent of the Brumbar because they both have somewho the denomitation of assault gun IRL but are completely different in game.

Jump back to quoted post11 Feb 2021, 11:41 AMHannibal

That's a fair point. A CD reduction however would also prohibit excessive use. Question though: Do you think then that the current barrage is underpriced?

Jump back to quoted post11 Feb 2021, 12:29 PMEsxile

No I don't think its underpriced. For a cheaper munition cost other factions get access to grenade able to simply wipe a full healed squad. Zis barrage isn't likely to do so but it compensated with a longer range. Imo the barrage on itself is balanced, problem comes when you add a second Zis gun or in team game when multiple players are Soviet.

What make it prevalent is the need and low risk atm to build 2 atguns. I think its more a problem of game economy and popcap than Zis Barrage.

That a consequence of balance team's previous decision to make atgun more prevalent coming from the push given to medium tanks that are more reliable and less countered by TDs along side with this idea during many previous patches to constantly reduce units popcap and manpower cost leading players into litterally flotting in manpower and increasing army size.

I mean if the solution to that is to nerf the Zis barrage to the point where players will overcome it by building two of them, that's imo a really bad solution that only enable previous bad decision making.

Jump back to quoted post11 Feb 2021, 14:09 PMCreativeName

Do i understand that correctly, by nerfing the zis barrage players are pushed towards using more zis guns? that does not makes sense... like at all. would you overcome the ostruppen nerf by spamming more ostruppen?

people use double at guns with every single faction, with every build, with every single commander.

try to find a single top player who thinks the zis barrage in the live version is fine, good luck with that

Jump back to quoted post11 Feb 2021, 14:33 PMEsxile

Where were you when the balance team started to nerf Maxim or the SU-76 barrage? And probably many other examples I haven't in mind. People simply built them more.

Jump back to quoted post11 Feb 2021, 15:46 PMTygrys

I'm sure the laughable "competetive" scene is what keeps the game alive.

Jump back to quoted post11 Feb 2021, 15:46 PMTygrys

I'm sure the laughable "competetive" scene is what keeps the game alive.