Zis-3 as an AT gun

I gave you the information that is relevant for AT guns.

AoE Pen is mostly irrelevant and the difference is 5.

You NEVER take in isolation RELOAD values, because it's only 1 component of the shooting cycle. IIRC it should be Ready aim + Fire aim + Wind up >> Shoot >> Wind down + Cooldown + Reload

Which is why i listed ROF and TTS.

Vertical rotation is also irrelevant.



The differences are minimal. The fact that the Zis have access to vet 0 barrage and +2 crew offsets the 1s difference in Rof, the 2 rotation speed difference (which was added to help the faction against light vehicles) and the 10 difference in penetration.

To make it complete, vet wise:

https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide#1220


Zis:
Unlocks the "Tracking" ability.

+30% rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.

+20% reload speed.
+30% penetration.
+6.25% range of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability.

Pak40:
Unlocks the "Target Weak Point" ability.

+30% rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.

+10% reload speed.
+30% penetration.

Pounder:
Unlocks the "Rapid Maneuvers" ability.

+100% rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.

+30% accuracy.
+30% penetration.

Yes, I totally get your point. But these seemingly irrelevant drawbacks are usually game-changing. I have been testing out for dozens of games(4v4 rank around 70) by asking my friends to para dropping me 6 pdrs, and Zis usually ditch out half the damage despite being presenting twice longer the time. Just taking the last game I just played, for example, the single pak 40 I captured for only 10 mins, have dealt the same damage as the Zis, which have been on the field for nearly 40 mins.

Here is my point, yes, some people do purposely build Zis for its utility. But, these utilities will phase off dramatically as the game proceeds and usually do not affect whatsoever in the late game. I don't expect zis to be as good as pak or 6 pdr, which it shouldn't.

Doesn't it point upwards before barraging

I think your ignoring the fact that it has really long range so it can fire from your fow(so you can't see that unless it actually fires). and the time between each shell is tight too. I think nerf to the time between shots it's receiving will make it pretty balanced they just need to remove the first show inaccuracy they added last patch.

I think your ignoring the fact that it has really long range so it can fire from your fow(so you can't see that unless it actually fires). and the time between each shell is tight too. I think nerf to the time between shots it's receiving will make it pretty balanced they just need to remove the first show inaccuracy they added last patch.

In regards to nerfing Zis and/or its barrage.

AT rounds shoot out of FoW too and so does most other barrage abilities, so I am not sure if this argument counts.

Does it wipe too often? No, rarely.

It costs munitions to do it.

Rounds travel very slowly in the air so you can easily dodge it. The sound is also very distinctive.

It has a lot of scatter so it has a good chance to miss

Usually my Zis barrage gets countered if the units close the gap and start engaging the crew members.

Zis gun is weaker than the Pak but it has the barrage ability to make up for it.

Its okay for units to be strong, that's what makes games fun. It is just not good if there is no counter play; which the barrage sound, recon, not blobbing, and watching the animation are all good ways to counter it.

Such a mediocre unit does not need much attention. I rarely have ever versed a soviet player and felt outplayed because he used a Zis gun barrage...

Also, it is okay for units to be different from their counterparts as this is an assymetrical game. It is a good thing that the Pak is very different from the Zis in their abilities.

Pak guns target weak point has very little counter play, however it makes the unit very fun to use because it is powerful. Tbh this ability is worth looking at more than the Zis barrage, but imo both are in a good place.

Finally, watch the ML tournament. You don't see the Zis or its barrage outperforming. In fact, many occasions of it missing and forced to reposition. Nerfing this unit any further is very strange.

Yes, I totally get your point. But these seemingly irrelevant drawbacks are usually game-changing. I have been testing out for dozens of games(4v4 rank around 70) by asking my friends to para dropping me 6 pdrs, and Zis usually ditch out half the damage despite being presenting twice longer the time. Just taking the last game I just played, for example, the single pak 40 I captured for only 10 mins, have dealt the same damage as the Zis, which have been on the field for nearly 40 mins.

This is kind of anecdotal though, and "Damage" really isnt a good indicator of an unit's performance, particularly those that are expected to be fighting infantry directly as the ZIS does.

Again, the lower AT performance is offset by the SU's access to the SU-85 in any case.

Here is my point, yes, some people do purposely build Zis for its utility. But, these utilities will phase off dramatically as the game proceeds and usually do not affect whatsoever in the late game. I don't expect zis to be as good as pak or 6 pdr, which it shouldn't.

I dunno man, the ZiS barrage is still very useful even lategame, infantry/team weapons are still running around capping points, and this helps to supplement your rocket artillery.

Zis is a good and does need any buffs.

Can we move Zis Barrage to behind veterancy 1. At the moment it's a no brainer for russian to get Zis gun as it's "I can do everything unit" with no drawback of building it. For any other faction AT-gun is only what it's supposed to be, gun to shoot vehicle/tanks.

Can we move Zis Barrage to behind veterancy 1. At the moment it's a no brainer for russian to get Zis gun as it's "I can do everything unit" with no drawback of building it. For any other faction AT-gun is only what it's supposed to be, gun to shoot vehicle/tanks.

Pak has the penetration, ROF and stun shot
M57 has good tracking but low pen
Raketen has retreat and above average model number
6 pounder has sprint
ZiS has barrage and 6 man and worst tracking.

Other drawbacks: Is locked behind a T2 building which means possible backtech.

Stop crying and deal with it. It's far from "I can do everything" unit. If ZiS is a problem for you, then balance is not something you should be concerned about, rather getting better and more alert.

Pak has the penetration, ROF and stun shot
M57 has good tracking but low pen
Raketen has retreat and above average model number
6 pounder has sprint
ZiS has barrage and 6 man and worst tracking.

Other drawbacks: Is locked behind a T2 building which means possible backtech.

Stop crying and deal with it. It's far from "I can do everything" unit. If ZiS is a problem for you, then balance is not something you should be concerned about, rather getting better and more alert.

Agree

Pak has the penetration, ROF and stun shot
M57 has good tracking but low pen
Raketen has retreat and above average model number
6 pounder has sprint
ZiS has barrage and 6 man and worst tracking.

Other drawbacks: Is locked behind a T2 building which means possible backtech.

Stop crying and deal with it. It's far from "I can do everything" unit. If ZiS is a problem for you, then balance is not something you should be concerned about, rather getting better and more alert.

Worth mentioning that the M57 also has the best Pen, DPS, and Range when muni is paid into it. (And the best arc by default), and that the Raketen apparently doesn't get the (Minor and buggy) benefit of "Green cover" that the two models manning the gun allegedly get on other AT guns.

Though I agree that the ZiS isnt in need of Barrage being moved to vet, I'm hopeful that the nerf with the coming patch is enough to make it a little more manageable.

Don't bother with dmg stats. They are bugged beyond fix.


Zis gun is fine. I do think that the barrage should be priced accordingly but any nerf should be paired with buffs towards other areas. For ex: i think mortars are due to have a vet improvement and slight cost adjustments.

Don't bother with dmg stats. They are bugged beyond fix.


Zis gun is fine. I do think that the barrage should be priced accordingly but any nerf should be paired with buffs towards other areas. For ex: i think mortars are due to have a vet improvement and slight cost adjustments.

It's unit kill/loss stats that are bugged, not Damage stats, isnt it? I still don't think they're relevant for a balance discussion, but as far as I was aware, the Damage statistics weren't inaccurate, just completely misleading due to how "damage" and "health" are so different in meaning between Infantry and Vehicles.

Pak has the penetration, ROF and stun shot
M57 has good tracking but low pen
Raketen has retreat and above average model number
6 pounder has sprint
ZiS has barrage and 6 man and worst tracking.

Other drawbacks: Is locked behind a T2 building which means possible backtech.

Stop crying and deal with it. It's far from "I can do everything" unit. If ZiS is a problem for you, then balance is not something you should be concerned about, rather getting better and more alert.

Whatever you say Zis is still the only AT-gun in the game that can do AI-damage with 6 man crew. Which makes it still the best universal AT-gun in the game. I am still of the opinion Barrage should be behind it's veterancy 1 skill. If soviet faction with maybe the most option of anyone for indirect fire can't live without Zis barrage then there is much more problems with the faction.

It's unit kill/loss stats that are bugged, not Damage stats, isnt it? I still don't think they're relevant for a balance discussion, but as far as I was aware, the Damage statistics weren't inaccurate, just completely misleading due to how "damage" and "health" are so different in meaning between Infantry and Vehicles.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/107338/improved-postmatch-stats/post/848620

A dash "-" represents a different shot while a bar "/" represents a quick update on value on the same shot.

Pak: 550 - 826/1376 - 2203 - 3029
Zis: 550 - 1376 - 2203 - 3029
Pounder: 275/826 - 1376 - 1927 - 2478
Rak: 550 - 826/1376 - 1652/2203 - 2478/3029
57mm: 550 - 826/1376 - 1652/2203 - 2478/3029

Basically i made a test in cheatcommands v2 and watched the replay at half speed while taking a look at how the graphs were been updated live.

Worth mentioning that the M57 also has the best Pen, DPS, and Range when muni is paid into it. (And the best arc by default), and that the Raketen apparently doesn't get the (Minor and buggy) benefit of "Green cover" that the two models manning the gun allegedly get on other AT guns.

Though I agree that the ZiS isnt in need of Barrage being moved to vet, I'm hopeful that the nerf with the coming patch is enough to make it a little more manageable.

Yeah, best penetration as a munition sink is not really any kind of argument. For or against. It's an ability, not base stat. Coupled with the higher than average armour values on Axis armour, it's absolutely needed. Yeah, best arc and tracking, worst pen. End of story. Any sort of munitions sink to do it's job well is not an argument for "pro" of any unit.

Yeah, best penetration as a munition sink is not really any kind of argument. For or against. It's an ability, not base stat. Coupled with the higher than average armour values on Axis armour, it's absolutely needed. Yeah, best arc and tracking, worst pen. End of story. Any sort of munitions sink to do it's job well is not an argument for "pro" of any unit.

It is when it makes the unit the best in the game at a particular role, though. AP rounds and "Take Aim" don't simply bring the M57 up to par, while they're active the unit is undeniably the strongest AT gun in the game at directly DPSing a vehicle.

Also: If we're not using muni abilities as part of the balance argument for an unit, then Barrage would be ignored too, given that it's not a "base stat", which would make the ZiS the second(or third, dependent on how you rate the Raketen) worst AT gun... which isnt true.

Captured a couple of m57s last night... 30 muni to put some serious pressure on anything armored that was usf won me the game. AP rounds were just overkill.

This is an equally funny and concerning thread

This is an equally funny and concerning thread

Bit vague there, innit?

AT rounds shoot out of FoW too and so does most other barrage abilities, so I am not sure if this argument counts.

It still does counter your point that it's easy to see.

Does it wipe too often? No, rarely.

It costs munitions to do it.

if used well yes.

Rounds travel very slowly in the air so you can easily dodge it. The sound is also very distinctive.

So are it's primary targets(in fact they are even slower) of this thing. MG's ,Mortars other AT guns and such. I'm starting to wonder if your player card is total bs.

It has a lot of scatter so it has a good chance to miss

True for the first shot, the consecutive shots are pretty accurate tbh. So if the fist shot lands there isn't much you can do about it, which was worse pre patch.

Usually my Zis barrage gets countered if the units close the gap and start engaging the crew members.

Zis gun is weaker than the Pak but it has the barrage ability to make up for it.

Its okay for units to be strong, that's what makes games fun. It is just not good if there is no counter play; which the barrage sound, recon, not blobbing, and watching the animation are all good ways to counter it.

Such a mediocre unit does not need much attention. I rarely have ever versed a soviet player and felt outplayed because he used a Zis gun barrage...

Also, it is okay for units to be different from their counterparts as this is an assymetrical game. It is a good thing that the Pak is very different from the Zis in their abilities.

Pak guns target weak point has very little counter play, however it makes the unit very fun to use because it is powerful. Tbh this ability is worth looking at more than the Zis barrage, but imo both are in a good place.

Finally, watch the ML tournament. You don't see the Zis or its barrage outperforming. In fact, many occasions of it missing and forced to reposition. Nerfing this unit any further is very strange.

it's not that much weaker than the pak in terms of AT it's just a bit slower and cumbersome that's all. All of this seem rather childish bro just saying. The barrage was a bit problematic, patch didn't solve the real issue. which was if you hit retreat or moved as soon as you hear the sound of see the flash you'd get hit models would die you'd be stuck in a loop unable to escape due to things fire rate. The patch made sure the first hit landing became a rarity. Didn't solve the problem but the new patch of nerfing it's fire rate(the barrage that is) is good as gives time to escape. Now if they don't revert the first shot acc thing this will be a Shit change no doubt, as the main culprit of high fire rate and slow attach time and clustered formation is no longer the issue anymore. But if they do it'll be a very balanced change.

Whatever you say Zis is still the only AT-gun in the game that can do AI-damage with 6 man crew. Which makes it still the best universal AT-gun in the game. I am still of the opinion Barrage should be behind it's veterancy 1 skill. If soviet faction with maybe the most option of anyone for indirect fire can't live without Zis barrage then there is much more problems with the faction.

Actually every single AT gun in the game has a 6 man crew, if the soviet man it. As such its faction trait and not a gun trait. You can't balance team weapons that can be crewed by anyone with the trait of that faction in mind because you end up with things like the maxim that is absolutely without value UNLESS you have a 6 man crew.

The zis pays for the barrage with inferior AT stats, which believe it or not, is why people buy AT guns.

Soviet weapons in general seem to pay for inferior stats with increased utilities (this helps offset the 6 man crew in a way but ensures that the weapon has value without the crew despite the lower stats, something the maxim notably misses as an example)

Also. The OTHER soviet AT gun also deals AI damage and has a 6 man crew following with the above reasoning but also disqualifying your complaint entirely.