Abandon

Except it disincentivises playing aggressively with your tanks, because there's the potential for both your diving vehicle to be abandoned behind enemy lines or even for the vehicle you're diving to be abandoned.

Imagine diving your enemy's Katyusha with your Puma, and killing it as it rolls into their base while you lose your Puma in the process. Now imagine the same scenario when the Katyusha is merely abandoned instead of killed. There was no way for you to influence that, you have simply been fucked randomly by RNG, as your opponent can recrew and repair the Katyusha with exactly 0 risk. Imagine if the Puma is abandoned, too. Dives are already adequately punished by losing a vehicle, they don't need an extra RNG risk of the opponent's vehicle magically not dying, or handing your own vehicle to them.

It rewards passive play, and punishes active play.

aggressive and passive plays are 2 sides of the coin.

neither is supposed to mean better over another.

like football, some teams press aggressively, some prefer digging in to snatch a win.

you know you can play aggressive even with abandon? the chance is already small to happen, the chance to destroy abandon tanks very high.

to always reward aggressive plays and penalise defensive plays, is sterile, makes no sense.

you know i prefer to watch tightrope random 2v2 casts than any esports matches. while 2v2 coh2 has a familiarity meta and build order, but every games have different possibilities and unmatched continual viewing.

if only coh2 managed to gain mainstream, i believe casuals would prefer watching a coh2 game than esports click adick.

when you build a game to play to win for money, shit get sterile fast.

Unless Abandons and MGC can be intentionally caused in some way, in the same way as Engine damage from snares, then this is still really not a great fix. It's still a massive (And completely random) reward for a passive player with no real counterplay beyond "Don't try and dive", which isnt something that should really be discouraged.

I know, but some things can only be band-aided.

in this game, the abandon was in your own base. so at times you may save yourself your own tank!

OP probably felt frustrated losing a ranked game due to abandon recently

imo, no need to be chasing the ladder, enjoy a game and the many idiosyncrasy that comes with it.

think of happier times when you won through rng luck. no need to feel dirty you lucked out instead of pure 'skills'. luck is part and parcel of life and very much in real world sports.

and what i said about tightrope 2v2 coh2 cast >>>>> esports. see the above.

The for or against mgc or abandon crit argument are mostly if not only about feelings/perception.

To me its about swinging games around that are basicly already lost or won depending on the players side, and giving some real wtf moments.

The only real problem imo despite what all the nee sayers claim is the low or no cost of recrewing a abandoned vehicle as pointed out.
There should be a cost for each catagory implemented as suggested. The bigger the vehicles the higher the cost in fuel and mp.

i wonder, how players, who want to remove abandons, think about games with mechanics like perma death. Or games like xcom. Games which are designed to fuck you up at some point, because those little 5 % say, that you are going to miss the shot.

IMO these games are thrilling. It is not bad game design but the personal choice of the devs on how the game should be.

Since opinions on what is fun differ, there is no right or wrong. Same goes with the arguments, that is punishing risky plays etc. It is only an iteration on how the game could be, but not necessary on how the game should be.

Frankly, everything that pushes coh2 into the esport scene takes cool stuff away. And since there is only a small amount of real competitive players, a tourney mod is more than enough to cope with them. I understand that those players want to erase this kind of rng if money is on the line.

But for normal ladder games is means shit. Rank doesnt mean much outside of tourneys. And if you wanna climb ladder, the games were the mechanic might fuck you up are so rare, that it wont stop you from climbing.

Removing it wont achive anything therefore.

Edit: That doesnt mean, that there is no room for adjustments.

I'm convinced the chance of an abandon is directly proportional to how close to your opponents base you are.

Oh 100%.

The abandon mechanic can smell weakness and chooses its moment carefully.

still waiting for kv2 to become a doctrinal Wehrmacht unit, as it should be

Is it possible to reprogramme to be triggered under specific circumstances? Say, if a vehicle has at least one crit and less than X% health and then gets hit by a hand grenade/molotov, it gets abbandoned? Just an example...

Because yeah, the way it is now is pretty unfair

i wonder, how players, who want to remove abandons, think about games with mechanics like perma death. Or games like xcom. Games which are designed to fuck you up at some point, because those little 5 % say, that you are going to miss the shot.

Those games are designed around those mechanics, and guess what, those games tend to not have a PvP or it's more decorative than anything else.

The whole 1%/5% extreme results had been removed from the game. If you were to follow that line of thought you are just giving more reasons to the players who wants to remove this mechanic from the game.

There are no random death crits on flamers nor grenades. Flamethrowers don't randomly explode. Vehicles don't have infinite lives because you keep getting crits instead of killing them. Mines don't randomly destroy your engine neither infantry snares. Heavies don't randomly stun vehicles. The list goes on.

The problem is not the mechanic per se, it's that it's attached to any vehicle randomly dying.

If for example, all tanks that die through a snare, be it mine or infantry one, have a 50% of abandoned and you need to pay X amount of resources, you will give players something to play around.

Those games are designed around those mechanics, and guess what, those games tend to not have a PvP or it's more decorative than anything else.

The whole 1%/5% extreme results had been removed from the game. If you were to follow that line of thought you are just giving more reasons to the players who wants to remove this mechanic from the game.

There are no random death crits on flamers nor grenades. Flamethrowers don't randomly explode. Vehicles don't have infinite lives because you keep getting crits instead of killing them. Mines don't randomly destroy your engine neither infantry snares. Heavies don't randomly stun vehicles. The list goes on.

The problem is not the mechanic per se, it's that it's attached to any vehicle randomly dying.

If for example, all tanks that die through a snare, be it mine or infantry one, have a 50% of abandoned and you need to pay X amount of resources, you will give players something to play around.

Preferably there'd be some 100% guaranteed way to cause abandons, rather than it still being a 50/50 (Though that's still much better than live)

Hell, forcing abandons could even be a Doctrinal unit's ability, if it destroys a vehicle. That'd be a lot more interesting than the current implementation.

What is it with this forum wanting to remove goddamn everything that makes the game interesting?

It is unreasonable to say that Abandon in it's current form doesn't add interesting flavor, drama and excitement, but it is also unreasonable to say that it doesn't create really unfair and frustrating moments that the game suffers from. Both these can be true at the same time. I feel like this casual vs competitive angle is a typical case of false dichotomy, because good game design is, instead of tacked on features, is about setting up something that is fun and enjoyed by most players. It would be probably be possible to redesign a really interesting version of Abandon in the mod tools that's exciting and also fair but that's beyond the scope of a community balance team in lieu of an actual Relic designer.

Abandon feels like a mechanic that was originally designed with some interesting interactions in mind (like using flamers to melt a tank crew) but then for whatever budgetary or technical reasons it was scrapped and instead just tacked on as some weird gimmick feature. As far as a small but simple rework without changing too much, it would probably be possible with the modding tools to prevent Abandon from happening in base sectors. It's pretty contrived but would fix the most obnoxious element of Abandoned (Giving your opponent a tank even though you didn't actually make a mistake because you base dived and took out a tiger and made a great play that you would not hesitate to repeat in spite of the ~5% abandon chance.) If a Tank gets abandoned on the middle of the map somewhere, most of the time it doesn't have much more of an impact than if the shot just bounced/missed and fails to kill the tank.

For what it's worth, it seems a pretty reasonable estimation to me that the majority of players in Coh2 play exclusively 4v4 or comp stomping, and enjoy abandon. Even if the vocal minority of competitive players who dominate this forum oppose it for its clear frustration and fairness problems.

It is unreasonable to say that Abandon in it's current form doesn't add interesting flavor, drama and excitement, but it is also unreasonable to say that it doesn't create really unfair and frustrating moments that the game suffers from. Both these can be true at the same time. I feel like this casual vs competitive angle is a typical case of false dichotomy, because good game design is, instead of tacked on features, is about setting up something that is fun and enjoyed by most players. It would be probably be possible to redesign a really interesting version of Abandon in the mod tools that's exciting and also fair but that's beyond the scope of a community balance team in lieu of an actual Relic designer.

Abandon feels like a mechanic that was originally designed with some interesting interactions in mind (like using flamers to melt a tank crew) but then for whatever budgetary or technical reasons it was scrapped and instead just tacked on as some weird gimmick feature. As far as a small but simple rework without changing too much, it would probably be possible with the modding tools to prevent Abandon from happening in base sectors. It's pretty contrived but would fix the most obnoxious element of Abandoned (Giving your opponent a tank even though you didn't actually make a mistake because you base dived and took out a tiger and made a great play that you would not hesitate to repeat in spite of the ~5% abandon chance.) If a Tank gets abandoned on the middle of the map somewhere, most of the time it doesn't have much more of an impact than if the shot just bounced/missed and fails to kill the tank.

For what it's worth, it seems a pretty reasonable estimation to me that the majority of players in Coh2 play exclusively 4v4 or comp stomping, and enjoy abandon. Even if the vocal minority of competitive players who dominate this forum oppose it for its clear frustration and fairness problems.

stop being elitist with the 4v4 comp stomp thing. i play 2v2 1000 rank randoms, and welcome mechanics like abandon, the more the merrier. and half part of the forums have the same preference as me.

stop trying to make luck more complicated than needed.

a simple look around, how many 'competitive' rts boast meme like coh2 has? how many dont? should coh franchise conform with 'normals' or continue to explore and expand on ideas and creativity.

of course relic will happily abandon abandon in coh3, makes their lives easier. but my fellow meme-ists, we shouldnt give them money if they do that! hodl!

What is it with this forum wanting to remove goddamn everything that makes the game interesting?

to get the e-sport branding and fame?

stop being elitist with the 4v4 comp stomp thing. i play 2v2 1000 rank randoms, and welcome mechanics like abandon, the more the merrier. and half part of the forums have the same preference as me.

stop trying to make luck more complicated than needed.

a simple look around, how many 'competitive' rts boast meme like coh2 has? how many dont? should coh franchise conform with 'normals' or continue to explore and expand on ideas and creativity.

do you even read the post you quote from time to time?

do you even read the post you quote from time to time?

yes i do. if not why i spent so much effort here.

my biggest pet peeve are

1. chasing that 'eek-sport fame', with the need for sterile conformity and mirroring for 'competitive balance'

2. nerfing wehrboo harshly

3. elitism with ranks and player cards

What is it with this forum wanting to remove goddamn everything that makes the game interesting?

its always the same 5 people who share the strange thought of coh2 being a competetive game or atleast try to force it to be one

some changes make sense, others are just downright contradictory to the nature of this game
if it wasnt coh but Fifa, they'd probably suggest removing the posts since its down to rng weather the ball enters the net or goes somewhere else

in the end its a loop. people will never be satisfied and thus come here to complain and demand changes. with every attempt to please them, new problems are created which cause other people to complain and demand and on and on it goes.
its been like that since the release of the game

yes i do. if not why i spent so much effort here.

then you should probably work on your reading comprehension skills, as TheMachine didn't even argue for outright removing abandon - quite the contrary in fact, he proposed a fix for the mechanic that would allow the worst effects of rng to be somewhat attenuated instead of purging abandon, and the flavor that comes with it from the game.
you know, building bridges instead of deepening the rift between those who enjoy the mechanic and those whose enjoyment suffers from random abandon crits costing them the game. maybe you should try focusing your 'effort' here in the same direction... just sayin'