Abandon

That is nonesense. You can influence abandon even less than accuracy and penetration, and even for those you are putting your game a fair bit into the hands of RNGsus. Abandon is a random occurance. You cannot do anything about it, because no one can influence if it triggers or not. It's like your game randomly bugsplatting in the middle of every Xth game.

Abandon is not a game breaker, it is just shitty design. Design wise there are no game breakers anymore in CoH2, the game is and has been in a decent to good state for at least two years. But your advise of 'don't lose your tank' is redundant and not more than a hollow phrase. Lost a game? 'Don't lose your units'. IS/Obers/Rifles/etc OP? Don't lose your units, just retreat. ISU OP? Just don't fight it, you have full control over it.

wow comparing abandon to bug splats? that is way too much. i get it that you 50 rank pros depise randomness, not enough high level thinking and user inputs etc, as it is the same for the others like us who appreciate randomness want to keep abandon, and have provided fair and valid reasons behind it. such as 'dont lose your units' aka presevervation and support and fast counter and fair chance for both.

ultimately just vote with your money. if you think coh2 with mgc abandon and randomness are not up to 'pro' standards, uninstall it. stop waste your time 'balancing' it, let it die as it is.

likewise if relic removes abandon in coh2, i will uninstall and review bomb it. will review bomb coh3 if they follow dow3 path, but not sure if thats even needed seeing how fast dow3 disapeared.

lastly still vonivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hulk sulk.
'competitive' games needs some broadening up for what should constititutes it.

Lol, series defining. What a joke.

Engine damage from mines would be a closer take to series defining.

series defining as in coming up with creative fun ideas of what can be put into every new game and expansion.

look at sc2 and sc1. they are supposedly 'balanced' for some, while others find them the same game with shinier graphics.

dont be afraid to scale new heights for what defines 'balance' and 'competitive'. relic needs need to approach in this same manner that won coh1 the amongst highest reviewed rts still.

"If cars are such transport defining commodity, why weren't they used in 1600?" kind of logic here at work.

This analogy isn't logical at all. Abandon is not some huge revolutionary mechanic, it's a small feature that's just dumb enough to be an unfair nuisance

Saying it's "series defining" literally contradicts your original point that it's not common enough to be a problem. RNG is still critical to every aspect of the game, don't see how it's valid to think changing/scrapping abandon means we're ruining the game

A couple of posts ago you said that abandon has next to no influence on gameplay. Now this is suddenly a defining trait of CoH? That's actually a quite poor trait then...

Blizzard, driver injured, crew shock, random stuns, OKW elite units moving down everything, Axis default win in the late game, UKF emplacement cancer,... all got removed, because they actually hindered gameplay. Yet this is how Relic initially wanted to define CoH2. But I'll tell you what: had they stuck to all this, CoH2 would probably be a dead game by now.

disagree, coh2 is as dead as coh1. that says a lot.

just because you get 50 pros playing the same-ish tourney, with hard capping options and meta. dont mean a thing in the grand scheme.

This analogy isn't logical at all. Abandon is not some huge revolutionary mechanic, it's a small feature that's dumb enough to be a nuisance

Saying it's "series defining" literally contradicts your original point that it's not common enough to be a problem. RNG is still critical to every aspect of the game, don't see how it's valid to think changing/scrapping abandon means we're ruining the game

scrapping abandon ruins the game by removing one whole path of outcomes that coh is known for.

abandon is not some late addition, it is built from day one. the 7000 active remaining players are playing as it is.

i really hate it when elitism few come and dictate their bullshit. going as far as forcing abandon removal from automatch and comparing it to bugsplat.

thank god relic still has control

why do i get the feeling some of you, while being super pro in coh2 and look down with elitism at the rest of the field. yet somehow feels inferior inside you when coh2 does not get the same 'pro-recognition' like say from sc2 and hulk?

cant you just enjoy a different take and idiosyncrasy of this series with its own defining options? why the need to conform and seek validation from other eek sports assosciations?

besides, a game with ww2 skin and actions, well it takes some promotions to reach out to the crowd.

...

I know it's easier to just answer in different post, but try to use the multiquote feature unless your post is pretty long.

Doing so once per thread is fine but at some point it's considered spam.

scrapping abandon ruins the game by removing one whole path of outcomes that coh is known for.

abandon is not some late addition, it is built from day one. the 7000 active remaining players are playing as it is.

i really hate it when elitism few come and dictate their bullshit. going as far as forcing abandon removal from automatch and comparing it to bugsplat.

thank god relic still has control

man, can you somehow get down from your 'elitism' trip for once and at least try to comprehend the arguments people bring up? abandon is neither a 'game-defining' or integral gameplay aspect of coh2, nor does tweaking (or removing, if tweaking turns out to be impossible) has anything to do with a small sinister circle of pro players wanting to destroy the game for the silent majority of the playerbase.
it's kind of puzzling to me how someone already flipping tables because of a mere 3% brummbär survivability nerf can be that indifferent to potentially losing a game due to same unit getting stolen and used against you.

I know it's easier to just answer in different post, but try to use the multiquote feature unless your post is pretty long.

Doing so once per thread is fine but at some point it's considered spam.

ok i try to use this new feature.

man, can you somehow get down from your 'elitism' trip for once and at least try to comprehend the arguments people bring up? abandon is neither a 'game-defining' or integral gameplay aspect of coh2, nor does tweaking (or removing, if tweaking turns out to be impossible) has anything to do with a small sinister circle of pro players wanting to destroy the game for the silent majority of the playerbase.
it's kind of puzzling to me how someone already flipping tables because of a mere 3% brummbär survivability nerf can be that indifferent to potentially losing a game due to same unit getting stolen and used against you.

it certainly is, and seems that way, no? what do other readers here think?
the severity floats between outright no compromise elitism by pip to lesser elitism such as the post by you to continue look down on rank 1000 players voices.

the 3% brumbar nerfs and removing abandon are two different issues fairly raised but with similar dictation aspect. fair points are being made from both sides. but the rabid elitist fews that are seeking esport validations are trying to drown out smaller ranked voices.

narrow, conformist definition of esport validations that is imo.

we shall prevail!

and vonivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hulk sulk

Snip

I'd just like to know how this abandon mechanic can create such a big part of the CoH2 experience if it virtually never occurs anyway. All the other RNG features? Okay, but I have not seen you opening a thread about it, arguing why you want those back and how they add more flavour than they take away from balance. But this thread is not about all these other features, it is specifically about abandon. A feature that in your eyes has barely any gameplay meaning anyway.
You regularly use balance changes and more recently also used a poll from the pro player discord as a means to support your own opinion. Now these same players agree that abandon DOES make a huge impact and needs to be looked at at least for tourneys but apparently potentially for standard play as well. So, if good players think that the abandon mechanic is a potential issue, and you yourself say that it does not affect your personal gamrplay experience at all (because it virtually never occurs), then how can you say that it should not be changed? You even did not even notice it missing in tourneys for the last 1+ year despite even the casters mentioning it multiple times! So if it does not bother you, but bothers others, why do you want tokeep the game in a worse state for others?

I agree, not all of those features are the same. My point was to get to know where you draw the line. And many of those vehicle crits were in the game a long time after release iirc (correct me though if I am wrong, I am fairly sure to remember and have seen replays with them from after release). They were part of the early CoH2 flavour but got removed as well. I was not in the forums back then, but I can't recall you arguing for bringing them back in a more recent thread (again, correct me if I am wrong since I can only read a fraction of what is posted on the forums). But even if they were removed before release: do you want them back? They follow similar principles like abandon. Random chance with no counterplay possible, but it might cost you the game if your tank just stands still because of RNG.
Your main argument seems to be frequency, but I disagree. Accuracy and penetration rolls happen on a much more frequent basis with limited control over them, yet they are fine. What breaks the game is low frequency and high impact. Donating a medium means donating 4-5 min worth of resources to your opponent. That's often a fifth of the resources that you can put into tanks before a fair game ends. And every abandon causes another action. You need to stay longer to kill the abandoned vehicle, potentially risking a second unit, taking more damage etc.

My stance is to make abandon more interactive, we've had some good suggestions already. That way it would still be a special feature of CoH2 since other RTS usually don't have such a take over mechanic while being less frustrating.

Snip1

You're still claiming that you had complete control over abandon, providing nothing else as backup except for 'don't dive' which basically comes down to 'don't lose your unit'.
The bugsplat is a hyperbole to exemplify this: you have no control over it. You might play a game, even 10 or 20 games and not encounter it once. Or you play only one or two and already get one. And in most cases you will either win/lose the game because of that.

I can see why you might not want to rework this from a 'flavour' POV, but you have been arguing with it not being a balance issue or evening out for all players. Provide proper reasoning for for this opinion, because I have for mine. Otherwise it is just nonsense.

disagree, coh2 is as dead as coh1. that says a lot.

None of the games is 'dead', and CoH2 has 4x the player count. It (even before MS gamepass) grew in size over the last years, which is very good for such an old game. If your argument is that people should vote with their play time, wll, they are already doing so and apparently not supporting your take on the game.

it certainly is, and seems that way, no? what do other readers here think?
the severity floats between outright no compromise elitism by pip to lesser elitism such as the post by you to continue look down on rank 1000 players voices.

i'm the last one to look down on anyone raising their opinion here just because of rank. a valid point is a valid point - no matter if it is made by someone in top 50 or top 5000.
the reason i'm calling you out is because you constantly victimize yourself of being on the receiving end of some sort of evil conspiracy and refuse to even rationalize that the other side may have some valid points, too.

and, last but not least, because instead of providing some reasonable arguments yourself, you seem to think that spouting out dumb catchphrases like this somehow proves your point:

we shall prevail!

and vonivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hulk sulk

You're still claiming that you had complete control over abandon, providing nothing else as backup except for 'don't dive' which basically comes down to 'don't lose your unit'.
The bugsplat is a hyperbole to exemplify this: you have no control over it. You might play a game, even 10 or 20 games and not encounter it once. Or you play only one or two and already get one. And in most cases you will either win/lose the game because of that.

I can see why you might not want to rework this from a 'flavour' POV, but you have been arguing with it not being a balance issue or evening out for all players. Provide proper reasoning for for this opinion, because I have for mine. Otherwise it is just nonsense.

None of the games is 'dead', and CoH2 has 4x the player count. It (even before MS gamepass) grew in size over the last years, which is very good for such an old game. If your argument is that people should vote with their play time, wll, they are already doing so and apparently not supporting your take on the game.

i did not claim we have complete control of abandon, itself. but control about what to do around abandon, around randomness that this game adds. I and other no pro players gave our arguement for this randomness and prep to counter it. did the elites chose to ignore what was said as nonsense?

for example, some plays quoted early, you can still do that with abandon on. but abandon opens another layer of plays when it happens. this is the flavour. i will argue this is an added challenge above memorising the build and meta and timings and your apm practice.

thats why i respect vonivan over whiney hulk. thats why football > chess imo.

im definitely open to do a rework and keep the mechanics, but this means a lot of changes, which i mentioned relic is unlikely to afford. i see nothing wrong with the current state.

on the extreme spectrum like pip and even sanders, they want to remove abandon. thats a no-no.

and coh1 did not begin life on steam. it is 4x player counter is not surprising vs an old old game. also did coh2 increase uptake after all that pros balancing and elitists tourneys, thats a question i ask you now.

as to whether the current coh2 player count wants to abandon abandon, thats not a thing. even in this forums, there are opposition against it. where is the full support on your take?

if you read steam forums or reddit or other forums, they have similar complaints about where the balancing is now. i wont be surprised if abandon removal is the final push off the cliff. let us see then.

i'm the last one to look down on anyone raising their opinion here just because of rank. a valid point is a valid point - no matter if it is made by someone in top 50 or top 5000.
the reason i'm calling you out is because you constantly victimize yourself of being on the receiving end of some sort of evil conspiracy and refuse to even rationalize that the other side may have some valid points, too.

and, last but not least, because instead of providing some reasonable arguments yourself, you seem to think that spouting out dumb catchphrases like this somehow proves your point:

because i and others have provided reasonable arguments. but to the elitist pros esporters, they seems to blank what was said as nonsense

if this is possible on steam apk, i really want relic to open a poll when one log into coh2, ask for players feedback. do you like abandon, do you like rng, do like flame critcials, do you want more creative flavour, what you dont like, do you respect the hulk, and lots of questions for the players.

before they start on coh3. let the majority speak.

i did not claim we have complete control of abandon, itself. but control about what to do around abandon, around randomness that this game adds. I and other no pro players gave our arguement for this randomness and prep to counter it. did the elites chose to ignore what was said as nonsense?

for example, some plays quoted early, you can still do that with abandon on. but abandon opens another layer of plays when it happens. this is the flavour. i will argue this is an added challenge above memorising the build and meta and timings and your apm practice.

thats why i respect vonivan over whiney hulk. thats why football > chess imo.

im definitely open to do a rework and keep the mechanics, but this means a lot of changes, which i mentioned relic is unlikely to afford. i see nothing wrong with the current state.

on the extreme spectrum like pip and even sanders, they want to remove abandon. thats a no-no.

and coh1 did not begin life on steam. it is 4x player counter is not surprising vs an old old game. also did coh2 increase uptake after all that pros balancing and elitists tourneys, thats a question i ask you now.

as to whether the current coh2 player count wants to abandon abandon, thats not a thing. even in this forums, there are opposition against it. where is the full support on your take?

if you read steam forums or reddit or other forums, they have similar complaints about where the balancing is now. i wont be surprised if abandon removal is the final push off the cliff. let us see then.

I have no idea why your main argument seems to discredit others as 'elitist'. I can assure you I am a complete scrub and still want to have abandon removed in its current state. The current implementation is also not the difference between - your examples - football and soccer, but between having all football teams play ormal matches but in every tenth game one team gets +3 goals by coin toss.
Because it mocks all other gameplay aspects. I could have made the perfect decision and calculation of my chances, pushed my cheap T34 behind a P4, destroyed that unit because I microed right.and in the end still come out as the loser because the game decided to abandon the T34 so my opponent can take it. Why should there be a mechanic that causes other game mechanics to not matter?
CoH2 is about controlling the RNG and making decision that are better than your opponent's decisions, because they lead to success more likely than whatever your opponent did. But it only feels rewarding if players have influence over what happens. And although you can still be unlucky, accuracy and penetration are good since you have influence over them and a single shot does not instantly decide a game.
But abandon is unpredictable without interaction.
Abandon does not need complete removal, but it needs predictability. Something that gives players a form of control over it. Currently it just leads to frustration because there is nothing you can do about it, nothing to learn or improve from.
If you say a rework is what you want then we are on the same page in that regard.

Snip

I think it's evident that there's no point continuing to argue with MrGame, he's not listening to anything you, or anyone else says, and keeps repeating his weirdly fallacious "arguments" regardless of how you deal with them.

If we're talking about mechanics and features in spirit of the game, there are multiple missions in the campaign, eastern front and ardennes based around abandoned vehicles but none of that has mattered for years. Cold tech, call in units, and if the new maps are any indication of where the game is headed-- true sight are all out the door.

If we're talking about mechanics and features in spirit of the game, there are multiple missions in the campaign, eastern front and ardennes based around abandoned vehicles but none of that has mattered for years. Cold tech, call in units, and if the new maps are any indication of where the game is headed-- true sight are all out the door.

There's no reason to think Truesight is "out of the door", the new maps still have multiple sightblockers, its just that there are actually avenues that units with long sight/range can actually exploit.

If we're talking about mechanics and features in spirit of the game, there are multiple missions in the campaign, eastern front and ardennes based around abandoned vehicles but none of that has mattered for years. Cold tech, call in units, and if the new maps are any indication of where the game is headed-- true sight are all out the door.

yep. it was super easy making sc1 -> sc2, barely an inconvenience for blizzard.

thats the fear i have for coh2 -> coh3. relic takes the sterile way out that still appeal to our 'pros'. cuts down the need for creativity and thinking cap and working hours. choice is clear.

ez. 'balanced'. 'competitve'. whatever. hulk returnsss for coh3. yay

There's no reason to think Truesight is "out of the door", the new maps still have multiple sightblockers, its just that there are actually avenues that units with long sight/range can actually exploit.

I mean, you've played Amilly Fields, right? Crossroads? Bayeux? Nexus? Crossing??!

We're not going to see another map like Stalingrad or the original Angoville maybe ever again in the official pool. I would argue it's a slow decline from the likes Wrecked Train and Beaux Lowlands but, I guess this is a thread about abandoned vehicles.