The time factor

In the latest patch notes there is comment that I found very interesting:

"Mobilize Reserves (Global Upgrade)

The Mobilize Reserves changes for Conscripts and the Mechanized Armor Kampenya are being reverted. While the upgrade could have stood on its own, it did not give an incentive for players to rush towards their final tier.."


It also a fact that patches steadily reduced tech costs and generally make things easier available (see OKW medic changes, Soviet medics/Molov changes).

It seem that mod team vision of the game where games are all played in final tier with everything available to all faction. Player are encouraged to "rush" towards their final tier

Imo those are step in the wrong direction for the following reason:

A) In coh 1 a player had to choose which tech he should go for since he simply could not afford all of them. That made the far more interesting since the player had to make "strategic" decision in a real time strategy game instead of just microing unit around the map

B) Reducing the tech costs and making thing available earlier results in sorter window of opportunity for unit to pay back for their investment and in order to compensate these unit are buffed. That in return make the game decided how well these units perform.

Evident of that is the fact WC2020 was so much depended in WC21 and 222 and even result in forfeit when a 222 was lost early.

Imo it is high time to considered if the direction of "rushing towards their final tier" is actually a good direction or if turning a real "strategy" game into an "arcade" game.

A) In coh 1 a player had to choose which tech he should go for since he simply could not afford all of them. That made the far more interesting since the player had to make "strategic" decision in a real time strategy game instead of just microing unit around the map

Factually incorrect.
USF tech worked exactly like current soviet tech, there was no reason to ever get all tiers up.
Wehr tech worked like current, but it encouraged getting every single tier.
British could easily and fast put out all 3 trucks.
PE had decision making exclusively in early game, they got MASSIVE REWARDS and incentives for putting and upgrading all tiers.

B) Reducing the tech costs and making thing available earlier results in sorter window of opportunity for unit to pay back for their investment and in order to compensate these unit are buffed. That in return make the game decided how well these units perform.

This is why units like ultra lights are getting late game utility and ability to vet up through shared vet where they can no longer commit to the fight.
Any other unit can be used in late game without problems, its not always optimal, but its not hinderance either.

Evident of that is the fact WC2020 was so much depended in WC21 and 222 and even result in forfeit when a 222 was lost early.

Top level plays can not be recovered after early loss of any unit.
You lost pios early?
You're fucked and possibly lost.

Factually incorrect.
USF tech worked exactly like current soviet tech, there was no reason to ever get all tiers up.Show Spoiler

USF tech in Coh1 was nothing like soviet Tech in Coh2.

(Grenades/Bars/Riflemen XP bonuses /76mm sherman upgrades where all expensive investments with a huge impact in units production)

Pls stop you silly crusade of disagreeing with anything and everything I post derailing all thread in process.

USF tech in Coh1 was nothing like soviet Tech in Coh2.

Well, they are veeeery close if you ask me. Tiers system and units in them have a lot in common.

Well, they are veeeery close if you ask me. Tiers system and units in them have a lot in common.

Not really, US had expensive global techs like grenades, Bars, XP gain, 76mm guns. They where expensive and available to all unit automatically without individual upgrades. Tech and upgrade where actual decisions a player had to make with an impact in how the game was played.

We can debate Coh1 if you like but specifics are quite irrelevant to this thread.

The point here is that there seem to be design decision to "rush towards their final tier" and the question is: is this a good design that will improve the game or not?

The final tiers for USF and Soviets just have medium tanks and TDs. These should be something that you get every game.

The final tiers for USF and Soviets just have medium tanks and TDs. These should be something that you get every game.

True but:
Should player be "rushed" to them?

Should tech just be used only as time factor (similar to CP) or should the player be given choice how to design his strategy with his decision making on tech choices?

True but:
Should player be "rushed" to them?

In soviet case, early game is meh at best without elite infantry or doctrinal upgrades.
Mid T3 game keeps getting gutted.
So yeah, in conclusion player should rush to them, because all the other options keep having their knees broken.

Should tech just be used only as time factor (similar to CP) or should the player be given choice how to design his strategy with his decision making on tech choices?

Tech was always a time factor.

This is no traditional RTS game with super expensive/long to research tech and ability to just mass and roll over opponent with early game units instead.

True but:
Should player be "rushed" to them?

Should tech just be used only as time factor (similar to CP) or should the player be given choice how to design his strategy with his decision making on tech choices?

For CoH2 I would say that tech should be indeed a time factor like CPs rather than any significant choice factor. CoH2 isn't really suited for many different strategies. This is due to the relative small scale of armies, the extreme rock-paper-scissor relationships between units, and the complete lack of a resource gathering system.

For instance the game doesn't allow you to focus on infantry based tactics as you can't harvest MP to out-macro a teching opponent. You are just gathering fuel that you are not spending. Rifles do 0 damage to tanks and AT guns are slow, so you have tech as well to also get tanks. Then you need arty to defeat the enemy AT guns. You can't really force players into choices other than 'LV first or medics first' as the game can't really be won without combined arms.

To me this is completely fine. Unlike more strategy focussed RTS games where often only a few battles are fought each game, CoH2 has constant engagements and is very tactical throughout each match. It does't need a lot of macro-depth on top of that to be good.

It also a fact that patches steadily reduced tech costs and generally make things easier available (see OKW medic changes, Soviet medics/Molov changes).

It seem that mod team vision of the game where games are all played in final tier with everything available to all faction. Player are encouraged to "rush" towards their final tier

I don't really see how making it easier for a faction to access their basic tools encourages players to rush to their final tier. The Battlegroup changes do the opposite - they give Mechanized an option to backtech to medics or indirect before getting tanks where this was previously next to impossible, and it has made the rush to T4 by going BG slightly more expensive. Soviet medics were changed to boost their mid game a bit because the Soviets usually struggle for manpower around that time, not the late game. The Molotov/AT grenade changes as it currently stands may actually increase the time it takes to get T4 for Cons builds, considering a lot of players skip Molotovs.

For CoH2 I would say that tech should be indeed a time factor like CPs rather than any significant choice factor. CoH2 isn't really suited for many different strategies. This is due to the relative small scale of armies, the extreme rock-paper-scissor relationships between units, and the complete lack of a resource gathering system.

For instance the game doesn't allow you to focus on infantry based tactics as you can't harvest MP to out-macro a teching opponent. You are just gathering fuel that you are not spending. Rifles do 0 damage to tanks and AT guns are slow, so you have tech as well to also get tanks. Then you need arty to defeat the enemy AT guns. You can't really force players into choices other than 'LV first or medics first' as the game can't really be won without combined arms.

CoH1 had a similar scale yet the design was much more about tech choices and choices with in the commander.

I don't really see how making it easier for factions to access their basic tools encourages players to rush to their final tier.

Ask the person who wrote the patch notes:
"While the upgrade could have stood on its own, it did not give an incentive for players to rush towards their final tier.."

Again it is the wording that very interesting here.

The Battlegroup changes do the opposite - they give Mechanized an option to backtech to medics or indirect before getting tanks where this was previously next to impossible, and it has made the rush to T4 by going BG slightly more expensive.

I am not questioning weather BG should get medic or not. As I have already posted it was "inevitable" or a necessary evil after USF revamp.

Soviet medics were changed to boost their mid game a bit because the Soviets usually struggle for manpower around that time, not the late game. The Molotov/AT grenade changes as it currently stands may actually increase the time it takes to get T4 for Cons builds, considering a lot of players skip Molotovs.

These are just one change in number of changes that have seen the tech cost of all faction being reduced while making easier for all faction to have access to everything.

As I explain in OP that imo is bad direction since it take away allot of strategic decisions making from the player and turn the game into arcade mode where the player will always make the same tech choices and game will be decided by micro.

CoH1 had a similar scale yet the design was much more about tech choices.

Exclusively for PE.

CoH1 had a similar scale yet the design was much more about tech choices and choices with in the commander.

I don't think this was a perticular strength of CoH1. The Commander system was better than in this game but a lot of the upgrade choises were not. Stuff like reduced upkeep or buying vet weren't good concepts imo.

I don't think this was a perticular strength of CoH1. The Commander system was better than in this game but a lot of the upgrade choises were not. Stuff like reduced upkeep or buying vet weren't good concepts imo.

Coh1 is only brought up as an example and regardless how good it was implement there, the question remains:

Should the game have less decision making involved and the player should be encouraged to "rush to final tier" (as the current direction seems to be) or should the tech decision require more thought each having advantages and disadvantages?

Regardless how good it was implement in Coh1 the question remains:
Should the game have less decision making involved and the player should be encouraged to "rush to final tier" or should the tech decision require more thought?

Its 8 years too late to ask that question.

CoH1 had a similar scale yet the design was much more about tech choices and choices with in the commander.

Rose tinted glasses. Only the Americans had well designed and balanced tech choices. Tech choices for the Wehrmacht were decent, but it was mostly based around buying veterancy which created problems of its own. This match-up was way better designed/balanced from the core than any of the factions in CoH2. Brits had no tech choices at all and PE only had limited choices, with a huge incentive (Panther Battlegroup and a ton of infantry upgrades) to backtech everything. Doctrines were also easier to balance because they were bigger and there were only 3 per faction.

Coh1 is only brought up as an example and regardless how good it was implement there, the question remains:

Should the game have less decision making involved and the player should be encouraged to "rush to final tier" (as the current direction seems to be) or should the tech decision require more thought each having advantages and disadvantages?

I don't think the tech needs (dis)advantages. I think CoH2 already offers this in the units that you get. Resources are fairly limited so it's already a strategic choice whether you go for that Panzerwerfer or that second Panther. I don't see why adding tech restrictions on top of that making the game better.

I don't think the tech needs (dis)advantages. I think CoH2 already offers this in the units that you get. Resources are fairly limited so it's already a strategic choice whether you go for that Panzerwerfer or that second Panther. I don't see why adding tech restrictions on top of that making the game better.

And we have the first opinion to the original question, thank you.

May ask what mode of the game you prefer?

Would prefer it if the tech was simplified even more in CoH3 (if this ever happens) so that player had even less decision to make regarding tech?

Rose tinted glasses.

Not really

Show Spoiler

Doctrines were also easier to balance because they were bigger and there were only 3 per faction.

Yes they where easier. This post in now way a criticism on the work of the MOD team.

Show Spoiler

Only the Americans had well designed and balanced tech choices. Tech choices for the Wehrmacht were decent, but it was mostly based around buying veterancy which created problems of its own. This match-up was way better designed/balanced from the core than any of the factions in CoH2. Brits had no tech choices at all and PE only had limited choices, with a huge incentive (Panther Battlegroup and a ton of infantry upgrades) to backtech everything.

Most of your comments here are correct my point is that COH1 in some cases there was more decision making to be made.

The real questions to you as member of the MOD are, is there a design decision to "give an incentive for players to rush towards their final tier"?

Is that a concussions decision or is happening without being aware of it?