Conscripts Ppsh assault package - Late game idea

Hey all,

I was always struck with the impression that assault package for the conscripts are at the moment somewhat middling in performance. In urban situations, it's definitely a great side-grade, but can really start to struggle once vetted lmg squads begin to wear them down before they could get into advantageous ranges.

Before, I've seen 6 ppsh assaults packages pop up as a suggestion, but with testing it's a little too strong as they can start punching infantry above their tier without much trouble if they can break distance quickly. That said, I feel like it can still be achievable so long as the option of going full package is delayed to late game and with even higher cost. It'll add a little more dynamic to the ppsh conscript package if anything.

The gist of it is, ppsh assault package can be repurchased a second time once SOV reaches T4 or research mechanized reserves. This second purchase will provide 6 ppsh for every model in the squad, removing any weapon slots in the process. For 120 ammunition and a research gate of exceptionally late game, I feel that the exceptional specialization that the cons receive is offset by its cost and therefore should be within the balanced range.

What do you guys think? I don't mind keeping things in status quo but I can't help but think about adding a little more to upgrade options.

At least it should be cheaper，about 40 ammo？
Agree after T4 could upgrade PPsh again,maybe for Ost Grenadier G43 too？
Also in test mod Mobilize Reserves not have free upgrade，maybe Consript reinforcement cost -2 could be global passive too？
Or just PPSH could upgrade without commander，assault package replace by single DP

At least it should be cheaper，about 40 ammo？
Agree after T4 could upgrade PPsh again,maybe for Ost Grenadier G43 too？
Also in test mod Mobilize Reserves not have free upgrade，maybe Consript reinforcement cost -2 could be global passive too？
Or just PPSH could upgrade without commander，assault package replace by single DP

I think a second G43 package is a great idea! Naturally, it'll probably be barred similarly behind BP3 or T4 building, but that's a fairly late game investment.

As for cost, I assumed the total cost would be 120 as the package is 60 on live, so double that cost is the full package. It could be cheaper, but I wouldn't want it to be so affordable to be a no-brainer purchase.

As for other suggestions you mentioned for cost, I believe that's best for the current test patch discussion thread. I am more just interested in solely double package purchase as an option in the game.

...

Ppsh upgrade does not need buffs this simply a result of SVT upgrade.

It should provide 6 ppsh but the individual DPs should be adjusted so the total close DPS remains the same.

I could however offer a discount similar to MR and it should take a weapon slot.

(edited to fix a typo)

Ppsh upgrade does need buffs this simply a result of SVT upgrade.

It should provide 6 ppsh but the individual DPs should be adjusted so the total close DPS remains the same.

That's a powerful nerf... not a buff.

I could however offer a discount similar to MR and it should take a weapon slot.

That does nothing for insufficient combat potential, especially with additional indirect nerf of vet3 acc loss, especially paired with your heavy nerf "buff".

That's a powerful nerf... not a buff.


That does nothing for insufficient combat potential, especially with additional indirect nerf of vet3 acc loss, especially paired with your heavy nerf "buff".

I am not sure why you bring up vet accuracy nerf since it that was a decision of the MOD team that effect all courtships and PPsh conscripts are the least effected by the 10% accuracy nerf at vet 3.

On the other hand a cheaper refinement not available to them at the moment will decrease their bleed.

I am not sure why you bring up vet accuracy nerf since it that was a decision of the MOD team that effect all courtships and PPsh conscripts are the least effected by the 10% accuracy nerf at vet 3.

Because that's a change that impacts performance of the upgrade and scaling?

On the other hand a cheaper refinement not available to them at the moment will decrease their bleed.

A token change that is completely irrelevant and does not address any of the problems the upgrade has.

The problem are:
-lack of scaling
-lack of firepower
-lack of utility
-lack of impact when you actually get the upgrade early, before you're vet3
-lack of synergy with HTD its bundled with

Bleed never was the issue.

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Once more it is irrelevant in this thread since this thread is about the ppsh and not conscript generally, the mod think they vet 3 conscripts over perform so they nerfed them. If you have problem with feel free to provide your feedback

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Once more ppsh conscripts are the least effected by the accuracy change.

Bleed has always been an issue for conscripts in late game and that is why MR provides a discount.
Only the discount does not effects PPsh which are actually the unit version that need it the most.

Ppsh upgrade does need buffs this simply a result of SVT upgrade.

It should provide 6 ppsh but the individual DPs should be adjusted so the total close DPS remains the same.

I could however offer a discount similar to MR and it should take a weapon slot.

That's not a buff, thats a big nerf...
6ppsh means close range DPS drops of faster on model death.
No more rifles mean lower mid/long range dps.

The ppsh package is in my opinion simply overpriced. It would be fine for 45 ammo.

Back to the main suggeation. I hate the idea of the ever-increasing muni-dump infantries. Stuff like LMG42s, ppsh, SVTs, ostheer g43s are fine. Stuff thats in the 30-60 muni range where upgraded units don't enormously out-perform unupgraded squads. Once you go over that things start breaking down. Then you get stuff like g43 fussie or double bren OP sections that just trade too well manpower wise without requiring any user imput or offer any counterplay.

That's not a buff, thats a big nerf...
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Did I say that it is buff or that ppsh conscripts need a buff?

And the change will bring them in line with other smg infatry.

Did I say that it is buff or that ppsh conscripts need a buff?

Lets help solve that memory provlem.

Ppsh upgrade does need buffs[...]

You said it needs buffs, then proceeded with massive nerf suggestion because.... reasons?
This thread is about ppsh assault package, so there is no possibility you could be discussing anything else.
Conscript Ppsh assault package is not separate thing from ppsh conscripts. I'll let you figure out why yourself.

PPSh-41 should not be a doctrinal upgrade, it should be an alternative upgrade for the 7th person. Also, to be an "assault package" when purchasing a PPSh-41, Molotov must be replaced with RGD-33 / RG-42. DP-27 replaces the PPSh-41 in commanding ability.

PPSh-41 should not be a doctrinal upgrade, it should be an alternative upgrade for the 7th person. Also, to be an "assault package" when purchasing a PPSh-41, Molotov must be replaced with RGD-33 / RG-42. DP-27 replaces the PPSh-41 in commanding ability.

That's an idea many people stood behind, but I doubt it would be implemented despite the fact that ALL other SMG upgraded units get an ability to go with the theme with exception for rangers, but they have their own unique quirk with 3 weapon slots already.

Part of the problem is that the abity is combined with Hit the Dirt, which makes no sense. To me, the ideal solution is to re-seperate the two, buff both, and give Hit the Dirt to the two most fitting commanders.

Mobilize Reserves could passively give them 3 more PPSh, but 6 right away wouldn't be an issue.

The fact that Soviets have no ppsh stock is mind-boggling. I think their T1 infantry should have had it, but that's a pretty major rejiggering, so not likely.

Part of the problem is that the abity is combined with Hit the Dirt, which makes no sense. To me, the ideal solution is to re-seperate the two, buff both, and give Hit the Dirt to the two most fitting commanders.

I agree and pointed out during the patch. (Same goes for sprint/camo)

Mobilize Reserves could passively give them 3 more PPSh, but 6 right away wouldn't be an issue.

If conscripts get, 6 ppsh as they should the weapons need to be toned down since they will have more DPS than units like the assault grenadiers.

The fact that Soviets have no ppsh stock is mind-boggling. I think their T1 infantry should have had it, but that's a pretty major rejiggering, so not likely.

I agree and have suggested multiple times, nice to see that you also agree.

So PPSH Cons are kinda jank. Relic has said they're not going to add non-doc weapon upgrades to cons. So they're stuck to being a doctrinal upgrade, but mechanically they're a bad version of Shocks in that case, in worse doctrines basically across the board, and there is no reason to ever build them when Shocks are tankier, dish out more damage, and have both a way of getting in (Smoke) and a way of dealing chunk damage (Nade) while Cons get nothing that supports aggressive pushing apart from Yuri getting shot as he lights the bottle.

I would propose that in order to give PPSH Cons a purpose, instead of just giving them SMG's and turning them into worse Shocks, give them Ambush Camouflage with it. (And adjust their performance as needed) this way you have a unit with SMG's that doesn't intrude on the aggressive nature of Shocks, you give Soviets another playstyle option with defensive hidden infantry that they lack (Partisans don't count), and you might give life to some currently underperforming doctrines. (I feel as if Soviet Doctrines need a massive tune-up though regardless.)

One note, I'd vote against a grenade since Commandos, Stormtroopers, Falls are all expensive units that are incredibly limited in how many you can reasonably field. Giving Cons the same ability to Uncloak -> Nade -> SMG -> remove squads instantly would be too much at their price point and durability. (I could be wrong but it feels too strong, could be worth testing)

I'm glad to see that at least we all agree that something could probably be done to add a little more kick to the ppsh upgrade! As for how that's implemented, I think there's a lot of more intricate ways to go, but simplicity is often best before we make big steps. Doubling the purchase behind tech feels the more direct implementation I had in mind, as that doesn't require bundling in balance of other abilities such as grenades, cloaks and HTD.

HTD is a quirky ability, but I don't have much to add on it and I was hoping to keep focus on the Ppsh and simply have more knowledgeable members point out possible faults if Ppsh x2 package might still be overwhelming with all the tech and muni walls put in place.