It's time for Main Gun Crits to go

Or at the very least changed. I know older players look back fondly on the days when COH2 was a giant roulette wheel of random criticals and non-stop RNG fun but main gun crits are the last bastion of pointless crits. Aside from the QoL of eliminating a frustrating game mechanic this should be done for balance reasons as well. I've noticed while testing PTRS Penals how many main gun crits I was producing and it occurred to me that fast firing PTRS spam increases the likelihood that you can cheese tank kills by just doing enough damage to trigger main gun crits. To a lesser degree it's pretty stupid that small arms fire can trigger random gun crits on Pumas when AEC/T70 is immune to small arms fire (I'm pretty sure that's the case anyway).

So yeah tl:dr Remove Main Gun Crits or limit them to vehicle damage only. At the very least deflection damage from handheld AT shouldn't produce Main Gun Crits if it does currently (I honestly don't know)

PTRS causing critical can become a problem when blob as I also have pointed. They should probably be removed from the weapon.

If they want to keep it, I'd like to see it only be possible when you hit 10% health.

Which would effectively remove it from the 160 damage AT weapons.

A penetrated shot below 25% hp has 10% chance to trigger the main gun crit. PTRS rifles deal less damage than other weapons so they need more hits which gives them more chances to apply the crit.

Small arms and flame types are excluded from the critical on most units, but indeed the Puma can get a gun crit caused by small arms (bug or intended?). Handheld AT and tank guns both have the type 'ballistic'. That means that handheld weapons cannot be excluded separately without changing the type and that would affect the damage to ambient buildings.

However, a PTRS rifle has a complex implementation. Its default damage is 14. On vehicles it applies 26 additional damage when penetrated. On structures it has 13 more damage. This apply_damage action has a setting 'cause_criticals' which in true for vehicles. I wonder if this additional action actually multiplies the crit chance?

A penetrated shot below 25% hp has 10% chance to trigger the main gun crit. PTRS rifles deal less damage than other weapons so they need more hits which gives them more chances to apply the crit.

Cant say that agree. The issue here is what happens once that threshold is reached. Then simply large number of shot fire increases the chance of critical.
1 penetrating shot from an ATG will do 160 and have 10% chance to cause a critical 4 shots from PTRS will also do 160 but will have 34% to cause a critical.

Small arms and flame types are excluded from the critical on most units, but indeed the Puma can get a gun crit caused by small arms (bug or intended?). Handheld AT and tank guns both have the type 'ballistic'. That means that handheld weapons cannot be excluded separately without changing the type and that would affect the damage to ambient buildings.

However, a PTRS rifle has a complex implementation. Its default damage is 14. On vehicles it applies 26 additional damage when penetrated. On structures it has 13 more damage. This apply_damage action has a setting 'cause_criticals' which in true for vehicles. I wonder if this additional action actually multiplies the crit chance?

I am under the impression that HMG can cause critical to vehicles on penetration.

more hits which gives them more chances to apply the crit.

large number of shot fire increases the chance of critical.

We mean the same...

I am under the impression that HMG can cause critical to vehicles on penetration.

The weapon types that can trigger a crit are set per vehicle. The Puma can indeed get its main gun crit from MG's. I have not yet found others, but there might be more.

We mean the same,

My apologies, I misread "they need more hits" confused me.
(I would use they have higher ROF so they inflict more hits.)

The weapon types that can trigger a crit are set per vehicle. The Puma can indeed get its main gun crit from MG's. I have not yet found others, but there might be more.

I am pretty sure I have seen critical from HMG in SU-76/AEC/222/251 maybe it is the AP rounds?

Removed, nah, but i would make changes.

Lower crit threshold to 20%.

Optional flavour:

Lower main gun destroyed to 10%.
Add turret lock at 20% and loader injured for turret-less vehicles.

Removed, nah, but i would make changes.

Lower crit threshold to 20%.

Optional flavour:

Lower main gun destroyed to 10%.
Add turret lock at 20% and loader injured for turret-less vehicles.

I'd really rather such game-changing examples of RNG be removed, or be given specific, manipulable circumstances in which they occur. I really don't find excessively impactful RNG like main gun criticals to be fun in the slightest.

Imagine if snares were a random chance, rather than being consistent based on particular circumstance?

I'd really rather such game-changing examples of RNG be removed, or be given specific, manipulable circumstances in which they occur. I really don't find excessively impactful RNG like main gun criticals to be fun in the slightest.

Imagine if snares were a random chance, rather than being consistent based on particular circumstance?

Because i feel like there's a big part of the playerbase which likes to play roulette and find them interesting. And it's hard to push for complete removal of things.

Therefore you find a way to make for a middle ground.

Because i feel like there's a big part of the playerbase which likes to play roulette and find them interesting. And it's hard to push for complete removal of things.

Therefore you find a way to make for a middle ground.

I'm mostly concerned about the imbalance that might be caused if the PTRS changes go live. It's tricky to tweak because if you lower the threshold too low then the crits are basically soft removed the game because they would only be triggered by low damage weapons like PTRS or when tanks have an odd amount of health due to being partially repaired which is even more tilting in way haha.

It's probably too much work/not even possible but it would be cool if units had timed abilities that generated criticals. For example Penals would have a "Target Turret Ability" that when active gave them X% chance to cause main gun crit per hit. You'd have to balance it accordingly of course but it would be RNG but you'd also have counter play where Axis player would see the ability icon and could decide to disengage or not.

Removed, nah, but i would make changes.

I agree with this line of reasoning. RNG is a core CoH thing, because it introduces new things to react to. The issue comes in when there's no chance to react to the random event. At least with a main gun crit, it has a chance to happen instead of death (...right?)
Something like the "turret ring locked" critical would mean that the unit could keep fighting, but gain a new exploitable weakness to flanking.
Another example of this idea would be a blind, which can be countered by having another unit present.
Counterplay is key.

And of course, statistically, more subtle and numerous RNG events are more likely to be fair.

I think the main gun critical ought to be removed, too. Only because it can have such a huge impact on a game because of how valuable vehicles can be.

I do like RoastinGhost's point of subtle and numerous RNG events. There are a bunch of criticals that were in the game that we don't see anymore (or are rare), such as main gun damaged/gunner injured that increase reload time. There's also a "turret destroyed" critical I remember from the beta days (it was cool on the Ostwind; had a damaged turret model too!). There could also be "machine gun destroyed"/"machine gunner injured" that could disable or impede a machine gun's operation (similar to turret gunner killed crit from coh1).

There are a lot of things that could be implemented if they're balanced, but I think that the main gun crit is definitely one of those that ought to be cut.

As an aside, I'd also be in favour of coh3 using the equivalent of "tourney mode" tuning pack that ML uses to be employed in automatch and/or in temporary "league" modes.

this would let "fun" randoms/criticals stay in the game but let those who want a more competitive game have their game (with no vehicle abandon lmao). Think of this idea as to what they did with cold-tech, where it's still in the game but not in automatch.

I would sooner them be replaced with crew wounds and what not. Destroyed components could be linked to more deliberate things like target weak point or such

Main gun crits are dreadful and have no place in this game, certainly not in automatch which by its nature is 'competitive'.

See also abandons.

Main gun crits and abondons are awsome and frustrating at the same time. And i love them.

People claiming they dont belong in coh2 should be playing other game's.
Both crits and lots of others have been in the game series since day 1. You knew they where in the game since day 1.

Watching say a tiger at a sliver of health have engine turret and gun working 100% all the time is no fun. Having a tiger being forced off after it main gun gets wrecked gives breathing room and makes the game much more exciting they game has already lost lots of excitiment in this way.

This is the best rts out there, its rng,nes makes it so great allong with true sight.

No more removing of crits pls, it will make the game dull, it already lists lots o f excitiment in that regard.

About RNG:
It seem a number of people do not like RNG and have connected it "bad" events.

People complain about "abandoned tanks", "main guns destroyed" and even about tanks missing or failing to penetrate.

On the other hand I have not seen so many people complain when their tank hits four times in row with 70% probability to hit or when their tank penetrates four times in row with 60% chance to penetrate.

That imo create a negative feeling associated with RNG. COH is game with RNG and imo that is part of its beauty.

Having airplane crushes wipe whole armies as it used to be is bad design and the decision to lower the damage was a good one.

On the other hand having plane crushes cause no damage as it is now in the patch preview is something I personally do not like either.

About RNG:
It seem a number of people do not like RNG and have connected it "bad" events.

People complain about "abandoned tanks", "main guns destroyed" and even about tanks missing or failing to penetrate.

On the other hand I have not seen so many people complain when their tank hits four times in row with 70% probability to hit or when their tank penetrates four times in row with 60% chance to penetrate.

That imo create a negative feeling associated with RNG. COH is game with RNG and imo that is part of its beauty.

Having airplane crushes wipe whole armies as it used to be is bad design and the decision to lower the damage was a good one.

On the other hand having plane crushes cause no damage as it is now in the patch preview is something I personally do not like either.

that's pretty well summed up. rng always goes both ways, but while people tend to take even the most unlikely event for granted when they benefit from it, the experience of 'bad rng' is routinely blown out of proportion.

i'm also in favor of keeping random criticals as they add much to the atmosphere and flavor of the game, but i'd rather tone down the effects where possible. for example, main gun destroyed could be replaced with a gunner injured or turret jammed critical as someone suggested earlier, or at least be turned into a temporary debuff. plane crashes being less deadly is also a step in the right direction, although i agree with vipper that the current damage could be beefed up a bit again to make it not totally inconsequential.

A tank often gets a main gun crit when the player is committed to trading it for an enemy vehicle and only needs one more shot to finish the job. It's the most toxic RNG event in the game, much more so than random abandons, and I don't believe it makes the game better even for the most casual player.

All RNG events like this should be able to be overcome with good micro, so if MGC were for example replaced with a "turret ring jammed" crit, you should be able to manually rotate the vehicle to get off your final shot.

]A tank often gets a main gun crit when the player is committed to trading it for an enemy vehicle and only needs one more shot to finish the job. It's the most toxic RNG event in the game, much more so than random abandons, and I don't believe it makes the game better even for the most casual player.

All RNG events like this should be able to be overcome with good micro, so if MGC were for example replaced with a "turret ring jammed" crit, you should be able to manually rotate the vehicle to get off your final shot.

How is that gun critical any different from missing the same shot or having 4 shots in row connect?