[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

So how does this new Battlegroup change affect panzerfaust timing? Will Battlegroup unlock cause it to take even longer to unlock panzerfaust or is it relatively the same?

So how does this new Battlegroup change affect panzerfaust timing? Will Battlegroup unlock cause it to take even longer to unlock panzerfaust or is it relatively the same?

Should be a slightly later since one has to unlocked them after setting up hq(which slightly cheaper)

From another thread:

OKW in tech in live:
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Notes:
Expensive heal as back tech with total cost of 300/40
Late timing for Hetzer/Ostwind
Different tech cost between t1 t3 and t2 t3 builds
Different timing for Panzerfaust/HMG in T1 T2 builds
Time to unlock depended on map and HQ placement

Winter patch ver. 1 2020-21
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Winter patch ver. 2 2020-21
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Notes:
overall the new system:
Reduce cost for healing by 100/20 if one back techs
decreases HMG cost is one goes T1
Increases cost/time of ST44/PF if one goes T1
Delays ober but makes lmg ober available earlier
Makes Ostwind/Hezter available 30 fuel earlier

Quick question: I went for T1, got the medic upgrade, lost it later in the game and built it again in the base sector. The medic upgrade was still unlocked. Is this intentional? Not that I am complaining, I was only surprised.

My suggestion would be to make OKW tech linear, to one and for all solve OKW's early game healing problems with mechanized and late game repair problems with battlegroup.

T1 would feature the current selection of units
T2 would be the current battlegroup building. It would feature the LeiG, mg34, and side techs like the British Bofors/AEC techs to unlock the luchs or flack half track.
T3 would be the current mechanized building. It would feature the Puma, Stuka zu Fuss, Uhu and maybe Obers if OKW infantry continues to struggle mid game.
T4 would have the current selection of units.

This would mean OKW would always have access to indirect fire, medics and rocket artillery, would still have to choose between the Luchs and Flak-half track. These changes would also help buff the weaker flack HT by allowing it to be supported with a Puma.

If you want to test this idea out, you can try it out with my mod which you can Download from this post

Overall I like the balance changes. There are 2 main issues for OKW in team games at the moment:

1. No real way to deal with Mobile Arty in team games (Katyusha/Calliope/but even Priests), especially in narrow lane maps with little/no flank avenues

For the mobile arty issue, OKW has very limited options to do anything about these in a crowded map. First I'll start with the less likely options because often it is the last option that you have to use.
- Stuka barrages will miss or not do enough damage on 1 rocket hit to lucky kill the arty, neither would 2 VERY lucky hits from 2 Stukas at the same time.
- Counter barrage from an LeFH can work sometimes once it is vetted up with faster reloads, but is still limited and only doctrinal.
- Recon flares from Panzerfusiliers/Special ops with a lucky offmap barrage for a player who is completely asleep at the wheel??? Basically this would never happen, and you need 2 OKW players with the different doctrines to pull this off
- Lastly but most commonly, the good old tank dive. The only one with anywhere near the speed and firepower needed to pull this off would be Panther. It would need to sneakily flank and try to 2 shot a Calliope (almost never 2 shots) and try to run away avoiding all other tanks, infantry with snares, and AT guns that just woke up. If you get caught with a snare, bye bye, OKW loses 185 fuel for 1 Calliope (135 fuel? I forget) and with low fuel rate, you are severely behind. You can try this with a PZ4 or 2, with some success but likely going to lose 1 if not both, again losing more fuel than you took from your opponent. Lastly and what I like to do against Katyushas is use a Puma (2 shots if on target but this doesn't work well against Calliopes as damage when you get there is too low usually and requires a lot of shots). But again, if there is a tank around chasing you out of your smoke back to your line, Puma is likely dead, god forbid there might be infantry with snares all over the place. But at least then you trade 70 fuel for a 100 fuel Katyusha. For Calliope, you'd have to use 2, likely lose 1. All this to say that OKW really struggles in a team game with Arty spam, which obliterates all your high MP vetted infantry, and that expensive tanks can't really chase down.
Recommendation: Keep the Stuka penetration buff against vehicles during play testing please remember that OKW really has nothing else to counter mobile arty, and even with penetration, the random location of Stuka rockets isn't really a great solution. The other option might be a targeted 1 or 2 rocket shot for munitions pinpointed where a vehicle might be.

2. Underperformance of key tanks in late game, namely Jagdpanzer, Tiger, and KT, but also PZ4 lategame.

I know OKW TANKS WEAK?!, every Allied player will scoff but hear me out. Keep in mind playing as OKW you don't swim in fuel, and most of the time you might have up to 3 medium tanks, or 1 heavy tank + a medium, after infantry and raketens are accounted for with max pop cap. For those 3 medium tanks, Panther is strong but expensive and in generally good balance so I won't talk about it. But to deal with Allied heavy tanks (KV-1, IS-2, IS-152, Pershing, don't get me started with unkillable, infinite-emergency-repairing Churchills which bounce Tiger shots), OKW are actually suffering against a heavy tank with multiple medium tanks or worse, SU-85s with insane sniping vision. Raketens can plink, but late game you're already dreaming if you think static raketens will survive the arty spam nightmare that will be raining down on you. You might be able to maintain 1 on the field between salvos, not gonna do anything to a heavy tank. which leads me to the KT and Tiger, which just don't have the stopping power with a medium tank to kill an Allied heavy. A Tiger with a medium tank will fall pretty quick to an Allied heavy with AT gun/TD backups. It will get swarmed (Hoorah!) and snared easily. KT's only hope is to stay super far away until it gets vet, then it becomes a problem. All I can say is thank god for the Ram nerf, that plus Rocket Run is a joke. Lastly, the Jagdpanzer, which for 135 is way too expensive for it's performance. Horrible mobility, penetration, vision, and armor compared to an SU-85, let alone if a heavy rushes it. It is easily penetrated despite sloped armor everywhere. It can't reliably penetrate heavy armor, which basically means in the end game, with enough Churchills/AVRE, 1-2 other heavies, and swarms of TDs on the field, there's basically nothing OKW can do to combat this. Infantry and raketens are cancelled by the mobile arty (above), what else is left? Pz4 Ausf J even vetted can't survive long on the field either, and doesn't have the penetration
Recommendation: the Churchill rear armor change is good! But OKW needs help against other heavies. So I think better penetration on Jadgpanzer specifically can help given that is supposed to be it's role. I would also recommend a bit more survivability to the Tiger, and I would increase the chance a snare misses or decrease range of the snares, given a lot of the time 2 or 3 squads are rushing forward towards a slow tank. Blitz doesn't help a lot on a KT.

Some more QoL issue requests:

- Fix the slow re-manning of the raketen, if 1 man goes down, it is just death loop with the new man crawling as slow as humanly possible to the gun, especially during a retreat.

- When you lose an upgraded BGHQ and rebuild a new one, you at least get to keep the medics. When you lose an upgraded Schwerer, the game is over with 120 FU lost, and don't get to keep your upgrade. It basically means you should never forward place it in a team game and it is just an AA gun. Defeats the "lockdown" intention of the upgrade, especially in team games where it will just be arty'd to dust.
Recommendation: Keep the upgraded gun for the rebuilt 2nd Schwerer

-Visually, barrel on the Jagdpanzer and Flammhetzer don't move, and shots come out at silly angles if the tanks don't need to rotate and target is still in narrow arc of fire.
Recommendation: Fix barrel movement visuals

BUG: Sometimes when you retreat squads back to base, and at the same time a new unit spawns from it, and you drag-select all of them -> then sometimes you will lose all buttons in the command panel in the lower right for one of the units (might not even be the newly spawned one). Even when you deselect the unit by selecting another, selecting it again it still has no command buttons (attack move, special abilities, etc). I think you can recover it if you retreat it again and group select multiple units, but if you don't, your hotkey memory better be good!

Quick question: I went for T1, got the medic upgrade, lost it later in the game and built it again in the base sector. The medic upgrade was still unlocked. Is this intentional? Not that I am complaining, I was only surprised.

Yeah, it's intentional. Works the same way on live as well.

2. Underperformance of key tanks in late game, namely Jagdpanzer, Tiger, and KT, but also PZ4 lategame.

I know OKW TANKS WEAK?!, every Allied player will scoff but hear me out. Keep in mind playing as OKW you don't swim in fuel, and most of the time you might have up to 3 medium tanks, or 1 heavy tank + a medium, after infantry and raketens are accounted for with max pop cap. For those 3 medium tanks, Panther is strong but expensive and in generally good balance so I won't talk about it. But to deal with Allied heavy tanks (KV-1, IS-2, IS-152, Pershing, don't get me started with unkillable, infinite-emergency-repairing Churchills which bounce Tiger shots), OKW are actually suffering against a heavy tank with multiple medium tanks or worse, SU-85s with insane sniping vision. Raketens can plink, but late game you're already dreaming if you think static raketens will survive the arty spam nightmare that will be raining down on you. You might be able to maintain 1 on the field between salvos, not gonna do anything to a heavy tank. which leads me to the KT and Tiger, which just don't have the stopping power with a medium tank to kill an Allied heavy. A Tiger with a medium tank will fall pretty quick to an Allied heavy with AT gun/TD backups. It will get swarmed (Hoorah!) and snared easily. KT's only hope is to stay super far away until it gets vet, then it becomes a problem. All I can say is thank god for the Ram nerf, that plus Rocket Run is a joke. Lastly, the Jagdpanzer, which for 135 is way too expensive for it's performance. Horrible mobility, penetration, vision, and armor compared to an SU-85, let alone if a heavy rushes it. It is easily penetrated despite sloped armor everywhere. It can't reliably penetrate heavy armor, which basically means in the end game, with enough Churchills/AVRE, 1-2 other heavies, and swarms of TDs on the field, there's basically nothing OKW can do to combat this. Infantry and raketens are cancelled by the mobile arty (above), what else is left? Pz4 Ausf J even vetted can't survive long on the field either, and doesn't have the penetration
Recommendation: the Churchill rear armor change is good! But OKW needs help against other heavies. So I think better penetration on Jadgpanzer specifically can help given that is supposed to be it's role. I would also recommend a bit more survivability to the Tiger, and I would increase the chance a snare misses or decrease range of the snares, given a lot of the time 2 or 3 squads are rushing forward towards a slow tank. Blitz doesn't help a lot on a KT.

You are using your tanks wrong if you think OKW has weak armor.

Going P4s against heavies is a struggle, but so is going Shermans vs a tiger. You are supposed to use panthers or KT if you want to brawl with heavies.

JP4s are not great vs heavies, but they are killer against enemy TDs with their fast rate of fire and small target size. They synergize great with the KT. Have your KT brawl the enemy heavy while using your JP4 to snipe at enemy TDs.

1v1 point of view.
From my limited plays, i think okw still struggles hard vs UKF early and mid game. volks cannot stand up to sections and, on top of that, ukf has early mg and carrier which are hard to counter next to sections.
After that, if you go luchs to try and win infantry engagements, ukf has answer in time (armoured car), if you go battlegroup (leig kinda works vs static ukf), maybe (if they don t go sniper to which again you can t do anything) you can even the odds a bit, but i think ukf still comes on top with bolster.
True, okw p4 is much better than cromwell, but later UKF has comet and new churchill and I don't think OKW comes on top even late game because of that.
So, all in all, OKW vs UKF is still a constant struggle for okw.

You are using your tanks wrong if you think OKW has weak armor.

Going P4s against heavies is a struggle, but so is going Shermans vs a tiger. You are supposed to use panthers or KT if you want to brawl with heavies.

JP4s are not great vs heavies, but they are killer against enemy TDs with their fast rate of fire and small target size. They synergize great with the KT. Have your KT brawl the enemy heavy while using your JP4 to snipe at enemy TDs.

Yea my point is basically all you can use is Panthers, but even that is hard give lower count due to cost and with SU-85s sniping at range and Jacksons trying to swarm. JP4 can't beat SU-85 or Jackson especially with it's mobility, which TDs are you referring to? M10?

Yea my point is basically all you can use is Panthers, but even that is hard give lower count due to cost and with SU-85s sniping at range and Jacksons trying to swarm. JP4 can't beat SU-85 or Jackson especially with it's mobility, which TDs are you referring to? M10?

Jp4 can and will beat allied TDs in a slugging match due to superior dps. Jackson needs screening due to its mobility but the Jp4 will absolutely whoop its ass nose to nose.

So, all in all, OKW vs UKF is still a constant struggle for okw.

+1

I really think the AEC needs to come later but I should post this in the UK thread.

I have one (serious) question about volks (for the balance team):

Are volks intended (by game design or whatever) to be this bad lategame?
Their rec. acc. on vet 5 alone is (compared to other mainline squads) questionable. (0,77 vs 0,63 rifle/0,66 sections/0,71 cons).
Is there a reason why volks dont get to a similar value with vet5? Their dps would be still inferior to others. Charging other infantry at that stage is just bleeding manpower without getting anything done. Or am i supposed to completely replace them with obers?

About the battlegroup changes: I think the current implementation is quite good. Its mostly for backteching after mech, but it seems more fluent and helps getting heal without ostheer mates.

snip

You're supposed to transition into obers and armor for damage in late game while volks are meat shields for them.

You're supposed to transition into obers and armor for damage in late game while volks are meat shields for them.

Thats still unfavorable for okw. Lets look at a combat between 1 ober + 1 volk vs 2 rifle.
Effective HP:
Volk Ober Both // Rifle Both
520 640 1160 // 635 1270

So 2 riflemen have more effective hp than 1 volks and 1 ober.

And about armor: What am i supposed to do when im forced to go mech with puma stuka? Obers arrive significantly later, while the p4 (the only ai vehicle in schwerer) has no real shock value in an even game. Ofc there is the kt, but thats very far away at that point.

Thats still unfavorable for okw. Lets look at a combat between 1 ober + 1 volk vs 2 rifle.
Effective HP:
Volk Ober Both // Rifle Both
520 640 1160 // 635 1270

So 2 riflemen have more effective hp than 1 volks and 1 ober.

And about armor: What am i supposed to do when im forced to go mech with puma stuka? Obers arrive significantly later, while the p4 (the only ai vehicle in schwerer) has no real shock value in an even game. Ofc there is the kt, but thats very far away at that point.

Obers melt rifles with the LMG and vet2+. Rifles can only win on short range with 2x bar upgrade, other than that, rifles lose. Volks are there not to stand behind cover and just trade, but to use flame nade to flush out the rifle squad. Unlike the regular nade which just explodes, the flame nade denies cover for some time. You can, but it's ill-advised to build and use volks as the main fighting force once obers and heavier armour are there. Furthermore, even if obers and volks are outnumbered. they can easily trade behind green/yellow cover agains 2x larger blobs long enough for your stuka to do it's thing.
All in all, if you're just spamming infantry, don't expect to win anything, especially in teamgames. 1v1s can be forgiving since the enemy will usually field 1-2 tanks unless they controlled most of the map for most of the time.
Combined arms. Use it. Don't use volks solo, nor obers.

And about that "and what about armour". You can't have it both ways. If you're early enough for that to be truthful, then the rifles will not have 2x bars (maybe 1), at which point stg volks and obers are more than enough, no matter the HP pool. If you're later on then you have to field stukas. OKW P4 has more than enough shock value for AI. Not to mention that it can laugh at the USF AT squads and make them bleed munitions which they NEED for the bar upgrade to be somewhat close to obers in terms of firepower.
All in all, it's pretty well balanced.

Obers melt rifles with the LMG and vet2+. Rifles can only win on short range with 2x bar upgrade, other than that, rifles lose. Volks are there not to stand behind cover and just trade, but to use flame nade to flush out the rifle squad. Unlike the regular nade which just explodes, the flame nade denies cover for some time. You can, but it's ill-advised to build and use volks as the main fighting force once obers and heavier armour are there. Furthermore, even if obers and volks are outnumbered. they can easily trade behind green/yellow cover agains 2x larger blobs long enough for your stuka to do it's thing.

Vet 3 lmg obers is the ideal scenario for okw and (most of the time) way later than vet 3 rifle with bars/lmg. Even when you measure max range vet 5 ober + vet 5 volks, 2 vet 3 rifle squads with 1 lmg and 1 bar have more dmg than them. So i dont get your "melt". Combined with their better rec acc they win every engagement where both players have equal cover.

Dont get me wrong. I dont want to have vet5 terminator volks, who beat rifle and sections. I just think that they could use something like -10% rec acc at vet 5 to reduce bleeding. Penals have a similar problem and it gets adjusted in this balance mod.

And about combined arms:
Yeah lets say both players have 4 mainline squads with equal vet and weapon upgrades, a anti tank gun, one tank and one mortar/leig. If both micro at the same lvl the one with the better inf will push most of the time, cause his opponent has to fall back once his frontline units are retreating. And volks are never the better inf in the lategame.

I have seen enough 2vs2 games in the latest tournaments, where okw players struggled heavily to hold ground in the lategame, while mostly providing arty and some at to help his ost mate.

Vet 3 lmg obers is the ideal scenario for okw and (most of the time) way later than vet 3 rifle with bars/lmg. Even when you measure max range vet 5 ober + vet 5 volks, 2 vet 3 rifle squads with 1 lmg and 1 bar have more dmg than them. So i dont get your "melt". Combined with their better rec acc they win every engagement where both players have equal cover.

Dont get me wrong. I dont want to have vet5 terminator volks, who beat rifle and sections. I just think that they could use something like -10% rec acc at vet 5 to reduce bleeding. Penals have a similar problem and it gets adjusted in this balance mod.

And about combined arms:
Yeah lets say both players have 4 mainline squads with equal vet and weapon upgrades, a anti tank gun, one tank and one mortar/leig. If both micro at the same lvl the one with the better inf will push most of the time, cause his opponent has to fall back once his frontline units are retreating. And volks are never the better inf in the lategame.

I have seen enough 2vs2 games in the latest tournaments, where okw players struggled heavily to hold ground in the lategame, while mostly providing arty and some at to help his ost mate.

Volks are cheaper, STGs come way sooner than the first bar on rifles. Rifles on the other hand are better scaling albeit expensive (120 for full upgrade + initial bar unlock + can only be acquired in base, unlike STGs and the likes which only need friendly territory). Don't see how you can keep complaining about volks.
If the USF has one AT gun then OKW P4 is more than enough to deal with it. Leig shi** on the USF mortar. USF will most likely have a pak howi (Leig is good vs it with great accuracy and pak howis low agility/survivability).
So let's see your setup USF vs OKW:
4 main line infantry USF -> USF wins most of the time. Only time USF rifles lose vs volks is on long range and before bar upgrades short range vs STGs (since STGs come sooner). All in all, rifles are favorable.
1 tank -> Sherman vs OKW P4. I don't think I have to explain anything here. 234 armour speaks for itself.
1 AT gun -> raketen is more than enough to deal with the Sherman while the AT gun will eat munitions and probably bounce that first autofire shot before the player even pops the piercing shells.
Not to mention that if the USF is constantly using the shells, no munitions for 2x snares not to mention BARs or zooks.
Mortar/Leig: as I have said, USF will most likely have a pak howi which the accurate leig can keep displacing and bleeding. And if you are an active enough player, you can nullify the usefulness of pak. Pak, while being really really strong, it's quite useless vs moving objects. In other words, careful when capping points and careful not to clump units up behind cover.

So if the enemy pushes you this easily with rifles, then it's a L2P issue and not a balance one. Lastly, if the enemy is doing a full scale push with everything, you can always put 2 volks squads behind to flank to kill the pak and AT gun and snare the sherman.
Again, not a balance issue. Volks are fine.

I wish Jagd would have vet 0 slow movement. Would be easier to micro with Panzerfusilers as a tank hunting squad.

Matter of fact, I wish *all* tanks had an option to move at slow speed with increased vision and accuracy. If MG's can have an implementation to reload, have all tanks have the ability to move slow enough where infantry can keep up with them.

Vet 5 Volks are still a bit underpowered in the late game, imo. I wish they had a bit more survivability in late game. But with OKW getting their LMG34's and IR STG's a bit sooner, it's really not a dealbreaker.

id love for a volks vet reshuffle. making self heal at vet 3 again would be a massive boon to the viability of volks and mech truck

Can we give "select target" and/or "attack ground" abilities to schwerer panzer hq? I understand the "high risk high reward" situation if you place the truck outside the base, but with section's new pyro smoke drop + arty combo or just heavy gammon bombs, t4 is just defenseless at all. I agree that smoke is to disable line of sight, but it disables whole turret as it cannot auto attack.

2nd thing: I know this patch is about core armies, but is it possible to give the 221/223 ability to shoot down planes? I think it's fair as m20 shoots and even UC can do it at some right angles (I'm not sure if it's intended or not). Also this unit's mg needs some "investigation" because sometimes it cannot follow attack orders, or it doesn't shoot even if enemy is in range, you need to order to do it manually (compared to e.g. wc51 or m20 which have similar role it's too micro intensive in certain situations).