[Winter Balance Update] UKF Feedback

Yes we know, according to you all soviet units/abilities are UP (and yet for some miraculous reason the preview soviet faction is one strongest faction in game).

Let me explain something to you, not every post you make has to contain a rant about how bad Soviets are...

Now pls stop derailing a thread for UKF feedback with your rant about maxims.

The maxim is undeniably ass. Admitting that doesn't undermine the vickers argument.

On the topic, some sort of ability that increases suppression is what the vickers needs not range and not pen. Even if THAT'S tied to garrison or some shit. It needs to be able to stop infantry attacking it head on...

The passive bonuses are defensive oriented only extra sight and range.

The active abilities bonuses are both defensive and offensive oriented.

Patch notes explains why they decided to change a passive bonus to active ability, it does not however explain why the specific bonuses where selected.

Well, the old passive bonus was extra range so it only makes sense that the new ability would be range as well to keep with the original unit design. I'm with Sky personally that if anything they should remove the penetration from the ability since Vickers already gets Penetration bonus at Vet 2 and with AEC it's not like Brits are really hurting to counter light vehicles. Has anyone tested what a Vet 2 Vickers with Take Aim active can do against something like Puma or Luches? If anything it would be refreshing that Vickers gets something different than some variation of "Armor Piercing Rounds"... Heck I would take range away in exchange for a suppression boost while Take Aim is active instead given Vicker's notorious not-best suppression Edit. Jinx with Dark on suppression idea lol

Actually, you know what might be better than this active ability, then?

If the Vickers instead got an active "Artillery" AOE ability, with approximately the same functionality as the Bofors' Suppressive Fire volley. This would allow them to suppress an area at range, but avoid any of these supposed "issues" with having a temporary range increase.

It would more closely matching with the "historical" use of the Vickers, and could conceivably be allowed to fire further, and perhaps even through/over shot blockers (Though this would obviously be subject to scrutiny). It also echoes the function of another British unit, the previously mentioned Bofors, but is otherwise very unique among HMGs.

Does the Vickers have an animation/blend that allows it to point "upwards"?

This would actually be really cool if a modder can try and make this happen. Might be a bit difficult to balance with how strong to make the suppression and how fast it lands but I'd be game to see it attempted!

This would actually be really cool if a modder can try and make this happen. Might be a bit difficult to balance with how strong to make the suppression and how fast it lands but I'd be game to see it attempted!

I tried it a while ago but haven't success. As far as i know if you want something to fire indirect, it need a projectile and the vicker dont have that, i try to creat one but i think the vicker dont have animation for that. What i can do, thought, is a toggle range increase with ark and suppression reduce.

Water cooled HMG able to fire for longer times is also "historically" correct.

Yeah, but the point is longer range is also historical accurate with the vicker, so that is not a reason for going against the ability.

Actually, you know what might be better than this active ability, then?

If the Vickers instead got an active "Artillery" AOE ability, with approximately the same functionality as the Bofors' Suppressive Fire volley. This would allow them to suppress an area at range, but avoid any of these supposed "issues" with having a temporary range increase.

It would more closely matching with the "historical" use of the Vickers, and could conceivably be allowed to fire further, and perhaps even through/over shot blockers (Though this would obviously be subject to scrutiny). It also echoes the function of another British unit, the previously mentioned Bofors, but is otherwise very unique among HMGs.

Does the Vickers have an animation/blend that allows it to point "upwards"?

while reading this i couldn't keep myself from thinking: "an mg used for indirect fire? wtf is that guy smoking?". so i quickly read up on the vickers and its modes of use during the war... and, wow, those lads were actually doing exactly this and not to bad effect either. learned something new today for sure! if it is possible to implement it (with proper animations and balancing) this would make for an interesting and unique replacement for the current vet1 ability.

Well, the old passive bonus was extra range so it only makes sense that the new ability would be range as well to keep with the original unit design. I'm with Sky personally that if anything they should remove the penetration from the ability since Vickers already gets Penetration bonus at Vet 2 and with AEC it's not like Brits are really hurting to counter light vehicles. Has anyone tested what a Vet 2 Vickers with Take Aim active can do against something like Puma or Luches? If anything it would be refreshing that Vickers gets something different than some variation of "Armor Piercing Rounds"... Heck I would take range away in exchange for a suppression boost while Take Aim is active instead given Vicker's notorious not-best suppression Edit. Jinx with Dark on suppression idea lol

No it does not make sense.

The passive bonus where sight and range but only garrison that made the vet 1 bonus purely defensive and inline with faction design/theme.

The current vet 1 ability increased damage, penetration and range and allows the unit to fire with impunity which is not inline with faction design/theme or the use of HMG in game.

while reading this i couldn't keep myself from thinking: "an mg used for indirect fire? wtf is that guy smoking?". so i quickly read up on the vickers and its modes of use during the war... and, wow, those lads were actually doing exactly this and not to bad effect either. learned something new today for sure! if it is possible to implement it (with proper animations and balancing) this would make for an interesting and unique replacement for the current vet1 ability.

If one wants to create an ability one could probably try an ability similar to what Centaur has but I am not sure how good for the game it would be. But that would different than simply increasing the range of the weapon.

In anyway I doubt it worth the effort in trying to get it right when there already solution tested in game.

No it does not make sense.

The passive bonus where sight and range but only garrison that made the vet 1 bonus purely defensive and inline with faction design/theme.

Faction design/theme is constant CHOOSING between defensive and offensive options.
AEC vs Bofors?
Hammer vs Anvil?
How has that eluded you all these years?
If you want to go with faction theme, that bonus being both defensive and offensive makes perfect sense and given how the ability was up until now, it perfectly enhances its flavor.

The current vet 1 ability increased damage, penetration and range and allows the unit to fire with impunity which is not inline with faction design/theme or the use of HMG in game.

Except it is and you are wrong.

Faction design/theme is constant CHOOSING between defensive and offensive options.
AEC vs Bofors?
Hammer vs Anvil?
How has that eluded you all these years?
If you want to go with faction theme, that bonus being both defensive and offensive makes perfect sense and given how the ability was up until now, it perfectly enhances its flavor.

For that argument to make sense, surely you would need to choose between two separate, and exclusive MG variants, or at least have the Vickers receive a different vet bonus/active ability based on the UKF player's choice of teching? UKF "design" was the choice between "Defensive" and "Offensive", not an unit doing both at the same time.

Though UKF faction design has moved away from the "choice" between Offensive and Defensive options more recently, with the AEC and Bofors becoming non-exclusive as of the balance patch.


Either way, Assuming implementation isnt impossible, cannibalising the Bofors' "Suppressive volley" code, or as Vipper suggests; the Centaur's vector-targeted strafe ability (Along with using one of their projectiles with edited properties) might provide an avenue into making this ability a reality.

Alternately, don't a few of the offmap strafes provide an "aoe damage and suppression" effect without the use of projectiles? Theoretically you could simply have the Vickers fire harmlessly into the air, and then "call down" a small AOE suppression strafe to achieve the same effect, right?

Obviously this assumes the Balance team is interested in making the time investment required to give the Vickers a brand new Veterancy ability, with the subsequent balancing it will require. This isnt hugely likely, but the suggestion is there for them if they do think it has merit.

I'd love to try and implement it myself, to save them the effort, but I have basically no experience with the CoH2 modding tools (And my programming time is currently in-use for personal projects).

For that argument to make sense, surely you would need to choose between two separate

Just like you have to choose with infantry to either fight from cover or not.
Same deal.

Just like you have to choose with infantry to either fight from cover or not.
Same deal.

IS fighting from cover or not isnt really a "choice" though, is it? Either they fight from cover and they're effective, or they fight from out of cover and are rubbish. They are punished, with no inherent upside for fighting out of cover, and benefit strongly from being IN cover (Which makes it not a choice).

Arguably any faction has to "choose" to fight from cover or not, it's just that you'd have to be an idiot not to (in 99% of circumstances), and UKF are punished in particular for not doing so.

I don't strictly agree with Vipper that a range-boosting active for the Vickers is "problematic", but I really don't think you're using an effective (or logical) argument right now, Katitof.

No it does not make sense.

The passive bonus where sight and range but only garrison that made the vet 1 bonus purely defensive and inline with faction design/theme.

The current vet 1 ability increased damage, penetration and range and allows the unit to fire with impunity which is not inline with faction design/theme or the use of HMG in game.

U keep spilling "faction design/theme" when US HMG got butchered tear up/down time? now where is the inline is that? Balancers stop caring about inline long time ago

In regards to the vickers barrage thing. Could something like volley fire be used? A target ability but with more range than the normal range? It would be direct fire but it would have the desired effect

In regards to the vickers barrage thing. Could something like volley fire be used? A target ability but with more range than the normal range? It would be direct fire but it would have the desired effect

That would be similar, but has some significant differences: It would require sight, and would definitely require the fire to be Direct, and it would be unit targeted, of course, which makes it a very different ability to that which has been suggested. Certainly an option, but it being closer to the Bofors ability would be nice, if that's possible.

Does an ability like "Volley fire" allow an unit to fire past it's usual range, in any case?

That would be similar, but has some significant differences: It would require sight, and would definitely require the fire to be Direct, and it would be unit targeted, of course, which makes it a very different ability to that which has been suggested. Certainly an option, but it being closer to the Bofors ability would be nice, if that's possible.

Does an ability like "Volley fire" allow an unit to fire past it's usual range, in any case?

I agree it's quite different, I was just trying to make it work because of the limitation of a projectile thing.

Not sure about volley fire range tbh. I was just using it as an example of a target suppression ability.

Perhaps an alternative way to get around the animation would be having the vickers shoot blanks but call in an off map of suppression in the area. Then you kinda get the desired effect if a bit janky

I agree it's quite different, I was just trying to make it work because of the limitation of a projectile thing.

Not sure about volley fire range tbh. I was just using it as an example of a target suppression ability.

Perhaps an alternative way to get around the animation would be having the vickers shoot blanks but call in an off map of suppression in the area. Then you kinda get the desired effect if a bit janky

That would probably be fairly reasonable as a compromise if the vickers can't easily be made to fire arcing projectiles briefly. Merely fire into the air with tracers, and have similar looking projectiles rain down as artillery from an offmap.

EDIT: I mean, all this is a little moot i suppose, if the balance team has no interest in giving the Vickers an ability like this. All up to them, in the end.

In regards to the vickers barrage thing. Could something like volley fire be used? A target ability but with more range than the normal range? It would be direct fire but it would have the desired effect

I think this is easier to implement than trying to mess with projectile. I will try to mod it out in the future.

Furthermore, an ability which function like that is actually kind of fit with the name "take aim".

A few ideas that I came up with while reading this thread.

1. Officer as a starting unit.
Starting with enfields with section-like stats. Recc acc also. 2 possible upgrades - Sten guns,light gammon bomb and improved recc acc, so that it becomes the same as in live. The second would be something like a marksman package - scoped enfield with jaeger like stealth maybe. Upgrades would be locked in T2 and lock out weapon slots, so that the player will have to make the decision on how to develop his officer (stens, marksman or double brens). The squad will start as 4 man and get 5. man at vet 2. The charge ability would be default, or locked behind vet 1.

2. Valentine
Locked in AEC tech. Price, hp, dmg and speed would be lowered. The vehicle would work as a support for infantry, be snareable even with full health and slow enought to not be able to chase down axis lights (that's the job of the AEC). Observation mode would be locked behind veterancy, so that the vehicle will have lategame usage. The royal arti valentine abilities would be transfered to the officer, or maybe an upgrade on the officer.

3. Bolster in T3
The idea is that the officer with LVs, mgs, sappers etc. should be enough to carry the faction into T3. Basically transfer the raw power from sections onto more of a combined arms type of play. The uc along with the new marksman upgrade on the officer should keep snipers at bay (hopefuly). Brits can always counter snipe in the end, now that the sniper has the same aim time as the axis one.

4. Sappers as 5 men squad
Price increased by +- 30 mp. Sappers become pretty good when they are 5 men, however, at T3 it would be too late to make an impact. I am not too sure about this change though, because early sapper spam could become a thing (buildable in T0 in this patch). That being said, it would also open up a lot more openers now that sections won't get a huge power spike after bolster.

Keep in mind that these are just some ideas that would draw up a concept for some kind of rework. I was making them with the last iteration of the patch in mind.

Also, I realize that it's all probably too big to be implemented, but if it works as an inspiration for a good change, I'm happy about it.