[Winter Balance Update] UKF Feedback

Dont be Silly Vipper. Your proofs are stupid and pointless. Give us a real replay or big test in cheatmode !

You are aware that you can do those test yourself right?
But since you ask this a simply test cover to cover, vet 3, Heavy sapper +1 bren vs LMG grenadiers.

https://www.coh2.org/file/19334/heavy-sapper-test.jpg

As you can see sapper won 4 out of 10 engagement vs the best main line long range infatry.

The result vs VG or with 2 brens weapons would be more in their favor.

I think the results are conclusive the claim:"are very bad in actual combat" is simply false.

Heavy Sapper wont be " fine-ish Combat troops" even with moving speed buff. They are lack of combat vet, take too late and too much investment to gain nearly 97% DPS of MG42 Gren vet 3.

And you are simply mistaken. They do get enough vet bonuses and they great base stats, the combination bring them to Shock troops durability.


0.59 target size, 1.25 armor and 23 reinforcement cost allow them to out bleed most enemy units, and they even repair faster. I stand by my original post:

With the changes to Sapper heavy sapper upgrades with 3 weapons + minespweers need to be look at.

So an engi unit with sidetech upgrades, tones of mun , punch hard ? Not really shocking, they still get shred by AI unit as they should. All they need is a small increase in price I think.
They are already overburdened as they have to be used as snare unit and optionally AT squad on top of the usual engi stuff.
And you can't start a game nor win one with 4-5 engi unit as UKF.

So an engi unit with sidetech upgrades, tones of mun , punch hard ? Not really shocking, they still get shred by AI unit as they should. All they need is a small increase in price I think.
They are already overburdened as they have to be used as snare unit and optionally AT squad on top of the usual engi stuff.
And you can't start a game nor win one with 4-5 engi unit as UKF.

Anvil is not a side-grade but that beside the point and investment in Heavy in the test was not that great either it was similar less manpower than double bren IS and slight more MU.

The upgrade is simply badly designed:
It provides a weapon without taking up weapon slot for no apparent reason

It provides a LMG that does not really work with SMG or with piats


It provides armor in a unit that already has small target size


It gives a repair speed that is work well with Churchill

Hence it should be look at:

A simply solution would be lower the price to 30 (or even less) and just provide the extra repair speed.

So an engi unit with sidetech upgrades, tones of mun , punch hard ? Not really shocking, they still get shred by AI unit as they should. All they need is a small increase in price I think.
They are already overburdened as they have to be used as snare unit and optionally AT squad on top of the usual engi stuff.
And you can't start a game nor win one with 4-5 engi unit as UKF.

you are ignoring scaling.
its not that they are going to be god tier, its that they are going to be too cost efficient and too flexible
sappers cost nearly 2/3 the price of tommies, which means increased map control, which means resources
they also benefit from bolster which means 25% more health and firepower (although the benefits of an extra man are far greater than 25% because increased models means increased targets, which can lead to less damage concentrated on singular targets)
they also iirc have a 0.9 target size, which is below average making em harder to hit out of the box
they also have a snare so you wont be able to aggressively punish them in the light phase
they can also get PIATS to they will scale into the mid late game as AT
they are also cheap per head to reinforce any captured weapon teams
they can also build forward heals, reinforcement and emplacements
they can destroy cover
they can lay mines
they can lay wire
they can also heal your armour

they have the potential to be a zerg rush that can adapt readily to what ever the enemy does to fight them.

it needs to be tested but it has A LOT of room for making the game realllly shiity.

All im going to nit pick is PIATs really REALLY suck. They are Zook clones, without any Super PIATs. So that isnt as nasty.

And they are smg infantry dependent on cover.

And their smgs are kinda trash...

But yea, keep an eye on them. Potential problem.

you are ignoring scaling.
its not that they are going to be god tier, its that they are going to be too cost efficient and too flexible
sappers cost nearly 2/3 the price of tommies, which means increased map control, which means resources
they also benefit from bolster which means 25% more health and firepower (although the benefits of an extra man are far greater than 25% because increased models means increased targets, which can lead to less damage concentrated on singular targets)
they also iirc have a 0.9 target size, which is below average making em harder to hit out of the box
they also have a snare so you wont be able to aggressively punish them in the light phase
they can also get PIATS to they will scale into the mid late game as AT
they are also cheap per head to reinforce any captured weapon teams
they can also build forward heals, reinforcement and emplacements
they can destroy cover
they can lay mines
they can lay wire
they can also heal your armour

they have the potential to be a zerg rush that can adapt readily to what ever the enemy does to fight them.

it needs to be tested but it has A LOT of room for making the game realllly shiity.

good luck to spamming Royal Engineer until you get Heavy upgrade
like i said before. Royal Engineer not Fine-ish combat squad what so ever, Give them 3 LMG in late game to win 4/10 match against vet 3 MG42 Gren and get only 1% HP model left is stupidness.
Map control is one thing, but holding it is another. Sapper cant hold aganist any mainline inf in early, mid game (even with 2 brens). For every model trade, UKF lose more than Axis.

good luck to spamming Royal Engineer until you get Heavy upgrade
like i said before. Royal Engineer not Fine-ish combat squad what so ever, Give them 3 LMG in late game to win 4/10 match against vet 3 MG42 Gren and get only 1% HP model left is stupidness.
Map control is one thing, but holding it is another. Sapper cant hold aganist any mainline inf in early, mid game (even with 2 brens). For every model trade, UKF lose more than Axis.

You are absolutely missing what I'm saying.
Map control translates to more resources.
Those resources translate to better support elements. I'm not under the illusion that sappers are going to be obersoldaten, but i think that because of their adaptability and scale ability it has the potential to absolutely upset the game balance as we know.
You seem to think sappers can't fight, that's simply false. They can fight better than pios can and scale better as well. I can see it potentially snowballing dramatically.
More map control means faster AEC means enemy needs faster AT, which means sappers map control can go further ect ect.

Obviously this is theory crafting but again, I see potential for fucking up the game and it should be watched.

Another thing is real game condition. How many Sapper you need to fill the field to acttually outmatch enemies ?

You are absolutely missing what I'm saying.
Map control translates to more resources.
Those resources translate to better support elements. I'm not under the illusion that sappers are going to be obersoldaten, but i think that because of their adaptability and scale ability it has the potential to absolutely upset the game balance as we know.
You seem to think sappers can't fight, that's simply false. They can fight better than pios can and scale better as well. I can see it potentially snowballing dramatically.
More map control means faster AEC means enemy needs faster AT, which means sappers map control can go further ect ect.

Obviously this is theory crafting but again, I see potential for fucking up the game and it should be watched.

like i said. How do you hold point is bigger problem. AEC + UC get nerf timming too. Your sapper cant hold the point against Ostruppen until 2 Brens gun ( which is late and stupid). that why I ask you how many Sapper you need to fill the field to make theory crafting come true.

they have the potential to be a zerg rush that can adapt readily to what ever the enemy does to fight them.

I'm sorry but do you even play Brits? The idea that giving sappers +25% capture speed and a small buff to a late game upgrade could risk turning them into all-around terminators is among the silliest shit I've seen on this forum.

I do think what many people who complain about the Heavy Engineers miss is that they are completely overburdened with tasks in a bad and risky way.

What should they do?

Fight Infantry?
Cap points?
Spot and clear mines?
Lay mines?
Build emplacements?
Repair emplacements?
Repair vehicles?
Snare Vehicles?

Its not good to invest so much munition in a single unit. It is better to have a low population specialist engineering unit, that is for repairing, building and laying mines all the times and a second one which is 100% for fighting and capping all the time. Isn't it a complete waste of time to let a squad with 1x Vickers / 2x Bren repair stuff for example? Shouldn't it used agressively at that time?

Repairing is very risky on top. You can loose a huge ammount of munition at once. I had it multiple times, that I built Heavy Sappers (mostly without double bren just for repairing stuff) and repaired a tank with it. My tank got under onmap AOE fire and Heavy Sappers were completely killed by first hit because they are standing really close together while repairing. A single hit can kill the whole squad. Imagine you payed for double bren on top, what a huge loss.

It gives a repair speed that is work well with Churchill

I hope it gives some synergy, because the Churchill is such a bad designed tank. For what do we need a damage sponge when the opponent can pick targets?



About this whole Heavy Engineer problem: I saw a lot of infantry spam that is/was a problem. A lot of that got changed or will get changed soon. I never saw Heavy Enginner spam beeing a problem and I don't see that in the upcoming patch either.

I would say, try and see. Devs will surely have an eye on units they changed with this patch. If this gots meta and is really op, they will surely do a hotfix (for example reverting speed). Don't stop all the changes in its tracks because there might be a problem.

Putting the snare on the Engies meant they were already horrifically over loaded. Either you dont have enough snare coverage and your infantry just gets bullied... or you have a lot of engies. With the capping changes, using Ro.Es as mainline wherever you can is even more incentivized.

Late game Heavy Engie spam would be a weird meta.

Still think its unlikely as they cost too many munis needed for FF tulips to field a whole line.

2 engie, 2 IS, 1 AO would be a really interesting Meta comp, if its possible to balance for that.

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Basically this. There is no reason to waste time discussing combat performance of a unit that is poorly designed in the first place. Furthermore, discussing heavy engineer balancing is pointless also because the decision between hammer and anvil depends on the tanks, not the extra stuff. And picking Comet makes always so much more sense that anvil might as well be removed as an option and nobody would really notice.

Anvil IMHO requires a fundemental rework, which I believe is out of scope of this patch. Hammer directly improves on stuff that you are already using because it's the backbone of your composition (generalist tank, mainline infantry), whereas Anvil brings extra weird stuff alongside your core compostion, for which there is neither space nor resources. Hammer is basically a big upgrade, anvil is more like a commander, but a non-competitive one.

Giving some competitive purpose to the so-called "damage sponge" tanks (Churchill, KV-1) without making them outright overpowered or completely abandoning their design would be perhaps one of the most difficult challenges for the balance team, and handling anvil is thus correspondingly problematic. Heavy sappers are just a cherry on top.

This is the case when you need someone like CptSprice to see if this is viable or not.

I can see the parallels to RET spam days, but the circumstances are completely different.

No M10 Call ins with vehicle crew dismounting.
AEC does not have Stuart levels of DPS.
Bars were more effective in an assault.
The 5th man requires resources vs vet

like i said. How do you hold point is bigger problem. AEC + UC get nerf timming too. Your sapper cant hold the point against Ostruppen until 2 Brens gun ( which is late and stupid). that why I ask you how many Sapper you need to fill the field to make theory crafting come true.

Oh right. Shit I totally forgot that they removed the Brit mg when then moved sappers to t0. Good catch!.. Also, if you sre trying to hold ground with CQB infantry I don't even know..... You take. You be everywhere and do your best to trade well. You know, how people play with the multitude of starter CQB infantry? While better at combat they lack scaling and are more expensive but you don't "hold ground" with them. You take ground. Aggression. If you think you are going to be holding ground with sappers it definitely explains why you don't see that this could potentially be an issue....

I'm sorry but do you even play Brits? The idea that giving sappers +25% capture speed and a small buff to a late game upgrade could risk turning them into all-around terminators is among the silliest shit I've seen on this forum.

Maybe try reading the forum a little harder eh? The thing im talking about is sappers going from T1 after your 4th unitish to built in the HQ from the word go and the potential fallout of it.
The Brit "issue" is slow starts and lack of aggression, both of which may be over remedied by making a unit that is designed for later in the game come at the very start without a Stat nerf or price increase. They are better than pios and scale Better than pios for only 10mp more than pios and well played pios are a threat in the early game.

This is the case when you need someone like CptSprice to see if this is viable or not.

I can see the parallels to RET spam days, but the circumstances are completely different.

No M10 Call ins with vehicle crew dismounting.
AEC does not have Stuart levels of DPS.
Bars were more effective in an assault.
The 5th man requires resources vs vet

There's some key differences in the other way as well though. Like a t0 mg, guaranteed access to an AT gun (and the mg), buildable forward reinforcement that can call in arty and is also a weapon rack and sappers can snare.
I could absolutely be completely wrong, I was about shrek fussies but I can absolutely see this being a major problem potentially...

good luck to spamming Royal Engineer until you get Heavy upgrade
like i said before. Royal Engineer not Fine-ish combat squad what so ever, Give them 3 LMG in late game to win 4/10 match against vet 3 MG42 Gren and get only 1% HP model left is stupidness.
Map control is one thing, but holding it is another. Sapper cant hold aganist any mainline inf in early, mid game (even with 2 brens). For every model trade, UKF lose more than Axis.

PLS read the test before posting.

In the test heavy sapper had 2 LMG NOT 3 and grenadier that won the fight only got 1%HP model also.

Now feel free to run with 3 LMG and come back with results.

...I think we can all agree that Sappers are fine-ish combat troops...

As Fine-ish combat squad this was a claim made by Ethereal Dragon and not me but I don't see debating the issue with him.

Both the game result and and test (after you requested it I might add) where done to prove that the claim that sapper "are very bad in actual combat" is simply false.

And I think we can agree beyond any doubt that heavy sapper can fight.

I have NOT claimed that heavy sapper are obers, contrary to what specific user might want to you to believe.

And this is does not even have to do with balance, the upgrade is simply badly designed as I have explained regardless of weather one can or can not create a blob of doom using Ro.E.

I'm old enough to remember when heavy sappers also had 50% reinforce cost in addition to these changes..

Can't say they were OP then, dumb but not OP. Even with vet you'd lose several models, and therefore brens too, on an annoyingly regular basis to indirect fire. Meanwhile the cost in munitions was extreme for a faction which is always short of them.

Where they did shine was in supporting Churchills into combat with a Piat per squad, more than 1 tended to mean losing expensive weapons. They could hold their own against unvetted inf and chip in against diving tanks though the reinforce cost was clearly to help with this role. Having to retreat 3 lmg squads after losing 2 models was tiresome and ineffecive.

Only way I found it to be really strong was with a forward assembly and retreat point. Though for capping centre amidst the usual maelstrom of indirect and callins you'd still be sending your IS.

Saying that the UKF late game is meant to to be powerful. Good change in my opinion and will be popular in the lower levels and 4v4s.

All im going to nit pick is PIATs really REALLY suck. They are Zook clones, without any Super PIATs. So that isnt as nasty.

Piats are the second strongest inf AT weapon in the game, after panzerschreck. It only has slow firing speed out of cover. Check penetration values on them.
Super zooks are better, but at the same time standart zooks are shit and super zooks requare commanders and quite expensive squads.

UKF can have second strongest inf AT weapon on a second cheapest inf squad in the game (after rears) which can have AT weapons and also have snares with them.

PGs - expensive, small squad
Rangers\Paras - just expensive, requares commander
Rears - cheap but shit zooks
Rifles - snare but shit zooks

And objectively Royals are probably second best squad to have AT weapons on in terms of cost\effectiveness and abilities. First one being Panzerfusiliers, because they also do have snare and recon on top of that.

I do think what many people who complain about the Heavy Engineers miss is that they are completely overburdened with tasks in a bad and risky way.

Hello, Sturmpios, my old friend, I've come to talk with you again.