[Winter Balance Update] UKF Feedback

As UKF, I have to get FFs, which arent great (the turret rotates faster than the tank now! I dont have to treat it like a casemate I have to micro manage!) And are dang pricey. Low DPS, low speed, super expensive rockets. If 2 Panthers show up, that and my entire remaining buildings/armor can and will quickly die (hopefully my 1 engineer is in position...). Building 2 FF means im now out 32 pop on non-lethal AT. Their machine guns are basically squirt guns. Sometimes it feels like the FF crew just... forgot to reload. 200 dmg shots still mean 4 to kill a medium, so slow reload doesnt help.

I get vs USF, the Sherman is nasty and the USF AT gun has huge DPS vs LV and medium (not even counting a dozered-up Sherman, they're just rude). And the M36 is just sooooooo good. Cheap Muni to beat FF pen, super fast, USF Acc on move. Fast repairs that dont take time from your snare squads.

So, I went and checked the AoE profile of the Crommy. She is .25, 1, 1.5 AoE radius vs the .75, 1.25, 1.875 of the P4 gun. The P4 has NINE TIMES the OHK area of the Crommy. Not counting RoF or accuracy, Crommy feels worse because she doesnt KILL anything, just softens them up. HP damage can be healed for free by all factions.

I did the math a while back. Crommy has GREAT theoretical AI damage, but one of the smallest OHK radius of any medium tank. Feels bad. HE Sherman has .50 for close, 1.25 for far and feels deadly. Crommy... just feels bad.

Also, she has weird Pen scaling for her job. She has high close pen, and crap far pen (105) yet she's designed for high speed sniping (diving germans means a broken engine, EVERYTHING HAS A SNARE). ALSO, she is .3 faster than a P4, but thats BEFORE Blitz, so the P4 is faster in a pinch. And she has 50% lower Accuracy on move, so she has to be stutter steped to ACTUALLY USE her speed.

Her MGs were normalized to the P4 before Pintle. All P4s get pintle, which is another 50% non-directional AI. And that means you need to hug snare infantry.

She still loses to a P4 even with Commander accuracy (bad ranged pen, 160 armor)

All for a little less fuel and the same pop cost. I need to check teching, but assuming AEC and Bolster, P4 should time about the same as Crommy. Why buy something worse than a near peer unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. Comet is an actually efficient generalist, which is why its so used.

In 3v3 and 4v4, she just dies to the gatunteed Panther spam, with no pen and no mobility advantage.

Changes: copy gun AoE of Sherman (or at least .35 close range), and keep the Hunt skill. Make Hunt as cheap as Blitz.

If these changes are too much, drop her to 11 pop, she is a budget P4 and should be priced accordingly.

that sounds like a pretty solid analysis.

i've run the numbers myself quite some time ago, though i must admit i haven't taken a look on the exact results nor the editor for a long while before posting this.

still, if memory serves me right you're correct about the odd AoE profile of the cromwell; the OHK radius is tiny compared to other tanks in its tier, but it should more than make up for that by the huge minimum AoE damage dealt with each shot (a guaranteed ~1/3 of the total HP drained with each hit) that no other medium comes even close to.
hence the crom will deal more consistent damage than, say, a p4, which may snipe a model or two much more often, but will also shoot 3 or 4 blanks in a row on occasion.

whether this consistency, as you already elaborated on, is good or bad is certainly debatable, but at least in terms of average AI damage the cromwell's main gun is certainly not worse than most medium cannons (with the notable exception of the HE sherman, obviously)

i honestly can't say much about the mgs since i'm pretty much oblivious of their respective dps. i thought the most recent buff should have brought the cromwell somewhere in between pintle-equipped and vanilla p4 territory, but i assume you've got your numbers right. anyway, i'd say that due to the abundance of yellow cover and RA bonuses through vet in the mid to late game, mg damage contribution tends to matter less in terms of AI performance as the game progresses.

the AT part i'd probably subscribe to, although pitting the poor cromwell against a panther or even a tiger and expecting it to leave more than just a dent is a bit far fetched imho.

Shes THE SAME COST as a P4 (not at my computer, is she still 120 fuel?

The Cromwell is 110 fuel, so it's cheaper than the Ostheer P4. It also has significantly lower tech costs, particularly in teamgames where it's doable to skip bolster.

[Firefly has] Low DPS

The Firefly does not have low DPM at all, it's similar to the Jackson. ROF is only an issue against certain targets like 640 mediums, where its 200 damage leads to overkill damage, artificially lowering its TTK. The TTK against a Panther is actually similar to the Jackson and only slightly worse than the SU-85. Vetted, it has the highest DPM of all TDs at 2304. Its vet 3 240 damage makes it significantly better against all targets (mediums from 4 to 3 shots, Panthers from 5 to 4, etc.).
This is excluding the Tullips and the doctrinal Command Vehicle bonus.

I mostly play in 3v3 and 4v4.
...

Most stock mediums are UP in those mods

The Cromwell is 110 fuel, so it's cheaper than the Ostheer P4. It also has significantly lower tech costs, particularly in teamgames where it's doable to skip bolster.



The Firefly does not have low DPM at all, it's similar to the Jackson. ROF is only an issue against certain targets like 640 mediums, where its 200 damage leads to overkill damage, artificially lowering its TTK. The TTK against a Panther is actually similar to the Jackson and only slightly worse than the SU-85. Vetted, it has the highest DPM of all TDs at 2304. Its vet 3 240 damage makes it significantly better against all targets (mediums from 4 to 3 shots, Panthers from 5 to 4, etc.).
This is excluding the Tullips and the doctrinal Command Vehicle bonus.

Ill have to try skipping bolster, normally that results in my infantry getting butchered by upgraded troops.

FF is fine, ESPECIALLY because of the turret rotation change. Its a heavy tank counter without the wicked speed and RoF to make the P4 obsolete, which is cool. Rockets are expensive, but thats only a problem due to a lack of UKF snare troops.

The 120sec cooldown on the mortar pit long range barrage seems entirely too long. Other factions this late in the game have rocket arty. A mortar barrage every 2 minutes that can be easily dodged doesn't close the arty gap nearly enough. The long range barrage cooldown should either be shorter, or it should be removed and the Land Matress should be made non-doctrinal. As it stands this fix to UKFs lategame arty problems isn't sufficient.

P4 is 1.85 times the OHK area in open field, still 9 times against bunched targets in green cover. OHK matters MUCH more than health as one drains resources and time, while the other just time. (And the MGs still suck)

Your numbers are quite a bit off. While technically correct (if you use the nominal OHK radius in the OHK area calculation), infantry models do seem to have a hitbox of non-negligible size. I'm not 100% sure about the exact dimension and shape (i.e. square or circular), but this adds roughly 0.5 m to all AoE distances. If you calculate with the adjusted values the ratios of the OHK areas for 80 and 160 DMG are only 1.41 and 2.78, respectively.

The Cromwell is 110 fuel, so it's cheaper than the Ostheer P4. It also has significantly lower tech costs, particularly in teamgames where it's doable to skip bolster.

UKF without side techs: 145 fuel for tech + 110 fuel for Cromwell = 255 fuel
Ostheer without T2 building: 155 fuel for tech + 120 fuel for PZIV = 275 fuel

But this is not realistic at all. Since UKF normally will build bolster and an AEC (and maybe grenades or weapon rackets) while Ostheer will build T2 and a 222, the PZIV will show up before the Cromwell does. You will have to fight the PZIV with AEC + 6pdr. That is a lot more realistic.

UKF: 145 + 35 + 20 + 60 (+ 10 / + 15) + 110 = 370 fuel (380/385)
Ostheer: 155 + 20 + 30 + 120 = 325 fuel

The Firefly does not have low DPM at all, it's similar to the Jackson. ROF is only an issue against certain targets like 640 mediums, where its 200 damage leads to overkill damage, artificially lowering its TTK. The TTK against a Panther is actually similar to the Jackson and only slightly worse than the SU-85. Vetted, it has the highest DPM of all TDs at 2304. Its vet 3 240 damage makes it significantly better against all targets (mediums from 4 to 3 shots, Panthers from 5 to 4, etc.).
This is excluding the Tullips and the doctrinal Command Vehicle bonus.

Technically Jackson has higher DPS, here for Vet0 to Vet1 at least:

Jackson: 160:4,675 = 34,22
Firefly: 200:8 = 25

At vet2 both gets a reload bonus, this will lower the technical difference in DPS, because the FF profits more. At et3 FF gets 40 more damage, Jackson gets a further reload speed. Technically Jackson still has some more DPS at Vet3, although FF always has higher alpha damage from Vet0 to Vet3.

Since - as you said - FF generates overkill versus some targets its real DPS is even lower. I'm not calculating with tulips for FF and AP-rounds for Jackson, although AP-rounds generate somehow guaranted damage with a great Penetration boost while tulips often do not connect (sometimes just because of terrain).

But the main thing is that battle situations are not static. If you get assaulted by tanks like Descolata wrote about for example, Jacksons will handle that situation significantly better. Same if you want to pursue a crippled tank. Speed, Accleration and moving acc have a way bigger influence on real DPS than the slightly better acc of FF when not moving or its higher mid range.

But this is not realistic at all. Since UKF normally will build bolster and an AEC (and maybe grenades or weapon rackets) while Ostheer will build T2 and a 222, the PZIV will show up before the Cromwell does. You will have to fight the PZIV with AEC + 6pdr. That is a lot more realistic.

I said teamgames. That's where you can go full support weapon or Assault Section builds on quite a few maps and where you don't need Bolster.

Technically Jackson has higher DPS at Vet0 to Vet2 at least:

Jackson: 160:4,675 = 34,22
Firefly: 200:8 = 25

The Jackson's reload is 6.55s.

But the main thing is that battle situations are not static. If you get assaulted by tanks like Descolata wrote about for example, Jacksons will handle that situation significantly better. Same if you want to pursue a crippled tank. Speed, Accleration and moving acc have a way bigger influence on real DPS than the slightly better acc of FF when not moving or its higher mid range.

The Firefly has better base accuracy, 10% accuracy bonus from the tank commander and 0.55 moving accuracy. It has a 48% chance to hit a medium tank (20 ts) at 60 range while moving, which is barely lower than the Jackson at 53%. It's slower for sure, but it'll hit about just as much as the Jackson does while moving.

It also gets more sight, tracking and War Speed with Hammer, Tullips to snare tanks or fire through shot blockers, and there is the Command Vehicle aura (+30% reload speed, -30% weapon cooldown, +30% accuracy, +15% penetration) that turns Fireflies into absolute terminators.

I said teamgames. That's where you can go full support weapon or Assault Section builds on quite a few maps and where you don't need Bolster.

Okay got that. Since when the game gets balanced around teamgames?

The Jackson's reload is 6.55s.

Thanks. I got it from here: https://coh2.serealia.ca/
Please tell me the right source.

Okay got that. Since when the game gets balanced around teamgames?

Since about 90% of the playerbase plays teamgames.

Thanks. I got it from here: https://coh2.serealia.ca/
Please tell me the right source.

You're at the right website, but tank reload is based on more than just the reload value. Always click on the tank gun and then hover over the dot in the graph; that's where it will show the actual reload.

Since 90% of the playerbase plays teamgames.

3v3 and 4vs4 is heavily unbalanced with some weird (unfair) map design and bs combos. Noone seems to look into that. Only 2vs2 is fine atm.

You're at the right website, but tank reload is based on more than just the reload value. Always click on the tank gun and then hover over the dot in the graph; that's where it will show the actual reload.

Thanks that is interesting. Why the Jackson gets about 2 seconds more reload and the Firefly only gets 0.25 seconds in addition? What is the missing factor for such a huge difference in comparison to reload value only? I would appreciate if you would explain that.

Thanks that is interesting. Why the Jackson gets about 2 seconds more reload and the Firefly only gets 0.25 seconds in addition? What is the missing factor for such a huge difference in comparison to reload value only? I would appreciate if you would explain that.

there are a couple of additional delays, e.g wind up, wind down and aim time, that are mainly there for animation cues to play correctly (think of a mortar reloading (actual reload), then putting the round in to the tube (windup), firing, and post-fire animation (wind down)). this is usually not used for tanks, but for whatever reason some USF tanks have quite significant wind up and wind down delays

there are a couple of additional delays, e.g wind up, wind down and aim time, that are mainly there for animation cues to play correctly (think of a mortar reloading (actual reload), then putting the round in to the tube (windup), firing, and post-fire animation (wind down)). this is usually not used for tanks, but for whatever reason some USF tanks have quite significant wind up and wind down delays

Thanks, after years of CoH2 I learned something new today

Your numbers are quite a bit off. While technically correct (if you use the nominal OHK radius in the OHK area calculation), infantry models do seem to have a hitbox of non-negligible size. I'm not 100% sure about the exact dimension and shape (i.e. square or circular), but this adds roughly 0.5 m to all AoE distances. If you calculate with the adjusted values the ratios of the OHK areas for 80 and 160 DMG are only 1.41 and 2.78, respectively.

Thanks MMX, so its only a large difference instead of straight obscene. Some kind soul did the math for us (reload hasnt changed, but holy, the Cromwell used to be OP). Chrommy is .3 seconds slower reload, 5-10% slower.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/4dtwnn/lets_talk_about_the_cromwell_vs_the_panzer_iv1v1/?sort=confidence

Seralia doesnt have the Chrommy for some reason, or it wont load for me.

this is usually not used for tanks, but for whatever reason some USF tanks have quite significant wind up and wind down delays

I would guess the M10, Jackson, Scott and Priest have these to facilitate the crew reload animations because they are open topped vehicles. The Pershing has wind down because of the unique casing ejection animation. Afaik all the other regular closed USF tanks don't have it.

I would guess the M10, Jackson, Scott and Priest have these to facilitate the crew reload animations because they are open topped vehicles. The Pershing has wind down because of the unique casing ejection animation. Afaik all the other regular closed USF tanks don't have it.

ah thanks, that makes sense. gotta admit that i've never even noticed the pershing has a special case ejection animation... guess it's time to play some heavy cav once again!

I would guess the M10, Jackson, Scott and Priest have these to facilitate the crew reload animations because they are open topped vehicles. The Pershing has wind down because of the unique casing ejection animation. Afaik all the other regular closed USF tanks don't have it.

Am I right to assume that the Vet2 20% reload buff and the Vet3 15% reload buff of the Jackson doesn't affect wind up and wind down? So this part of Jackson reload never gets modified and the 25% of FF at Vet2 does more than 20% and 15% of Jackson together because it affects 8.0 seconds out of 8.25 total reload.

The Firefly's Tulip Rockets should be cheaper. They are a skill shot, they often miss and they don't come with the Firefly, they're an addon.

I think that 80 munitions is too much right now. It's a well designed snare, but too expensive. The prepatch rotation/mobility improvements are sorely needed.

Am I right to assume that the Vet2 20% reload buff and the Vet3 15% reload buff of the Jackson doesn't affect wind up and wind down? So this part of Jackson reload never gets modified and the 25% of FF at Vet2 does more than 20% and 15% of Jackson together because it affects 8.0 seconds out of 8.25 total reload.

absolutely correct. reload bonuses from abilities and vet only affect the actual 'reload' part of the firing delay.