[Winter Balance Update] UKF Feedback

Speaking of the Land Mattress, any chance of it being improved? The range is so short and the accuracy is so crap for something that has to be wheeled into position. Feels like I'm wheeling a Katyusha into position when I should be wheeling in a Low-Angle Panzerwerfer.

Its vet 2 got fixed, which will now propoerly apply +33% damage.

See the bugfixes.

AEC is worse in literally every way than the puma. I don't think the nerfs were not needed, but it'd be nice if it got a speed or acceleration buff to compensate, or at least got its smoke fixed. It also seems to miss a lot of shots, even while stationary, but I don't have accuracy numbers so I couldn't say for sure.

This is especially pertinent because brits have a lot less snares on the field on average than any other faction and have no other nondoctrinal light vehicles.

You can check everything here: https://coh2.serealia.ca/#

I wont mind if the AEC is delayed further by a bit, for example tech cost from 15 to 20 and have it AI buff via MG or AOE. With the sight neft, it can also have a tank commander upgrade instead of vet sight bouns. Tank Commander will be available after company CP.

What does the balance team think about the airlanding officer? I never see it used in either competitive play or automatch.

Don't forget about the Boffors being non-exclusive with the AEC. UKF Sim city might be more in vogue again I think. I really like the new Mortar Pit but I can see how it can be toxic.

Indeed. This is what I truly fear. AEC for strong early game, cancerous late game with heavy mortar and Bofors. Might not be a problem in large team games where rocket arty is so prevalent, but in dragged out smaller games it might make UKF unstoppable.

Now that hold the line works on all friendly territory... Its time to nerf it or there will be a lot of abuse and complaints about it. I would reccommend a delay to when the flares drop to when the planes arrive as currently, it is instant and I do not believe that there is a limit to them but I could be wrong there.

UKF stock units

Headquarters

Grenades
Increase tech cost.
This is powerful tool for IS since their "weakness" is sort range fight and this upgrade allow them to fight close range more effectively.

Bolster
Bolster now individual upgrade for units increases entity count but does not provide that entity.
IS cost down to 260. That would help normalize IS cost to build and reinforce.

Infantry section.
Increase time to build sandbag, replace the vet 1 sight bonus with faster build time

(ideally sandbag would be move to Ro.E.)

Trenches now do not block vehicles, cost 50mp, are password protected but can captured by enemy unit, can not be dismantled.

Pyrotechnics
Now takes all weapon slot but provides scoped Enflied.

Scoped Enflied come with a timed ability that increase range to 40 and can critical kill. Suitable for counter sniping and countering hmg.

Fist base 25p only fire smoke rounds
Second base 25p only fires HE so T3 is required to get HE rounds.

Medic upgrade now take up 1 weapon slot.


Medic
The unit is simply broken and redundant as stock.

Heal as fast as an ambulance, cost allot less, I harder to kill and equally effective even with one entity thus one get heal for 1 pop, can cap.

There is no reason for this unit to be stock since UKF had already two 2 healing options. If there is a need for base heal simply add base medics soviet/okw style.

Bren carrier

Reduce the extraordinary mobility Accel: 5.8 Rotate: 60

Rework wasp upgrade so that it comes earlier but is less powerful.

DOT damage removed from auto-fire and moved to an ability instead. This has already been moded from AEgion (but can be fine tuned)

https://www.coh2.org/topic/106380/initial-vehicle-adjustment-ideas/page/1#post_id832718

Vickers
Maybe replace the vet penetration with something better?

Platoon Command Post

Bofors Tech
Tech cost removed

Bofors build cost increase to 40 fuel. This change will make first bofors cheap but increase cost for spamming them.

AEC Tech
Increase time of tech to delay vehicle

Ro.E
Destroy cover increase CD now cost 5-10. This is powerful ability and there should be some limitation to its use.

Assault officer

Unit requires a redesign.

Shared veterancy removed (should be removed from all fighting officer)

Now move to HQ start with 5 men cost 280 now uses assault IS stens. Grenade replaced by mill requires tech now come with smoke grenade.

Heroic charge now has mu cost and require T1.

Reckon plane removed. This is very important especially since it can be used with powerful UKF off map like "air supremacy" and the place practically can not be countered.

Sniper
remove the snare, there is no reason for a sniper to be able to damage the engine of 222.

Mortar pit
The empty mortar seem silly. Add the second crew but one mortar fire HE the other only smoke. Pop reduce to 6.

Upgrade allow second mortar to fire HE munition Mk.II LR munition for extended range with different ROF so that shell do not land together.

Upgrade also increases pop 8. HE barrage is too powerful and should be removed.

Forward assembly
build time further reduced.

UKF stock units

Headquarters

Grenades
Increase tech cost.
This is powerful tool for IS since their "weakness" is sort range fight and this upgrade allow them to fight close range more effectively.

Bolster
Bolster now individual upgrade for units increases entity count but does not provide that entity.
IS cost down to 260. That would help normalize IS cost to build and reinforce.

Infantry section.
Increase time to build sandbag, replace the vet 1 sight bonus with faster build time

(ideally sandbag would be move to Ro.E.)

Trenches now do not block vehicles, cost 50mp, are password protected but can captured by enemy unit, can not be dismantled.

Pyrotechnics
Now takes all weapon slot but provides scoped Enflied.

Scoped Enflied come with a timed ability that increase range to 40 and can critical kill. Suitable for counter sniping and countering hmg.

Fist base 25p only fire smoke rounds
Second base 25p only fires HE so T3 is required to get HE rounds.

Medic upgrade now take up 1 weapon slot.


Medic
The unit is simply broken and redundant as stock.

Heal as fast as an ambulance, cost allot less, I harder to kill and equally effective even with one entity thus one get heal for 1 pop, can cap.

There is no reason for this unit to be stock since UKF had already two 2 healing options. If there is a need for base heal simply add base medics soviet/okw style.

The pyrotechnics/medic can be combined into bolster system so the global tech can be removed.

My suggestion is to remove the bolster completely.

Pyrotechnics supplies require grenade tech to be researched. The upgrade will allow the section to be reinforced up to 5 man abd add 2x scope enfield with g43 profile, take all slot and maybe can gain back 1.2t cap rate with some sight bonus. 2x g43 on a 5 man section with sight bonus and artillery flare is solid enough for a light infantry role, a fancy snipe time ability is no needed. Cost can go from 45 to 50 or 60 muni depend on how strong the scope enfield can be offered.

Weapon rack research will now unlock "weapon section" upgrade, for 25 or 30 muni. This Simply add a 5th man without taking up any slot so the section can be sorted out with double weapons. This bring the cost of a double weapon section close to 120 muni, on par with rifle, at the same time left them without healing or arty. This allowed ukf to still field heavy infantry who can stand late game again enemy elite, but now with clear trade off. The built speed bouns can be given via this upgrade, too. On a fancy side note, the 5th model can be a sapper model to represent an amo bearer of a heavily armed fire team, to make this district from light section above and medic section below.

Medic section upgrade can be removed in favor of new medic squad, or stay and add a medic model but take 1 weapon slot as your, exclusive with two upgrades above.

UKF stock units...

Nerf UKF hard!

I'm wondering which game you play. In my game they are just fine overall, but reading your post I get the impression they are pretty op. Yeah, there are some flaws, but getting this correct means to nerf some units and buff some others that are too weak/underused. I didn't found that second part in your post, maybe you just forgot to fill it in there?

i remember some time ago when no one played brits. Now they can be pretty tought to beat in some stages and with some strategies.
Maybe bolster can pe pushed later as an upgrade. But they got to do smth about their lmg. I feel they are to weak. Limit to only one if possible, but a better one.
Hope new mortar solves some of their problems against camping opponents in 1v1 though I don't think it will see too much love.

I'm wondering which game you play. In my game they are just fine overall, but reading your post I get the impression they are pretty op. Yeah, there are some flaws, but getting this correct means to nerf some units and buff some others that are too weak/underused. I didn't found that second part in your post, maybe you just forgot to fill it in there?

This are mostly design change and need to be tested then one can fix any issue there might be.
But you seem to have missed:
Officer from headquarters
Wasp without T2
Cheaper IS
....

This are mostly design change and need to be tested then one can fix any issue there might be.
But you seem to have missed:
Officer from headquarters
Wasp without T2
Cheaper IS
....

Edit: I missed the Wasp without T2 and I don't understand why. Its timing is fine, why putting it in T1? Cheaper IS comes with nerfs, I don't think it is worth it. Officer from HQ is the only real change with an impact if you ask me, but it comes with a few nerfs too. Biggest one is the loss of the Vet1 recon plan. Keep in mind that only the Commando Regiment has a doctrinal ability to lift the fow behind enemy frontline to target a howitzer for example.

And don't get me wrong we do share some thoughts.

Like you I don't want an emplacement onmap artillery, because we don't want to go back to static UKF emplacement play. UKF needs something mobile, more fragile instead (risk/reward). Emplacement play was bad in those days and it will be bad in these days again.
Like you I don't like the Heavy Sappers in their current form, there would be so much potential for a more versatile play style.
Bolster is another feature that doesn't work like it should, I'm with you there.

But changes like cutting Bren damage output to half of its former peformance by remvoving both of them completely at one upgrade and giving only one Bren at the other upgrade sound a little bit drastic if you ask me. There has to be something to make up for such a drastic change. That was missing in your post and lead to mine.

i remember some time ago when no one played brits. Now they can be pretty tought to beat in some stages and with some strategies.
Maybe bolster can pe pushed later as an upgrade. But they got to do smth about their lmg. I feel they are to weak. Limit to only one if possible, but a better one.
Hope new mortar solves some of their problems against camping opponents in 1v1 though I don't think it will see too much love.

And I remember a time at their release where they were op as f... and everybody played them. Just tankstomp the opponent with mutliple Churchills at a price of a PZIV. But even worse was the time where they just got the new Emplacement Commander and Sim City was a common sight in teamgames (often allies lost that games nevertheless, because UKF player turtled on a VP/fuel with his whole population, while all axis player attacked elsewhere).

I do like them a lot more as they are now. It is just the missing off onmap artillery / rocket artillery that is not depended on a grenade throw and some flaws with IS / Sappers. In addition one or two commander really would need some love, I have always the same three in layout, because there is no doubt about them beeing superior to all others. Otherwise I do think they are at a pretty fine spot.

Edit: I missed the Wasp without T2 and I don't understand why. Its timing is fine, why putting it in T1? Cheaper IS comes with nerfs, I don't think it is worth it.

UKF have trouble dealing with garrison and HMG. Early wasp could help them allot in that department. The trade off would munition consumption for the DOT ability and that makes sense.

In addition it would increase the window of opportunity of wasp which is sort because 222 arrive very early.

The change makes wasp more accessible and less potent at same time so that the unit is safer investment.

Officer from HQ is the only real change with an impact if you ask me, but it comes with a few nerfs too. Biggest one is the loss of the Vet1 recon plan. Keep in mind that only the Commando Regiment has a doctrinal ability to lift the fow behind enemy frontline to target a howitzer for example.

Stock reckon planes should be available to all factions or none especially in one can not prevent them from being used to call in off maps. This is indirect buff to off map of faction. The combination should simply not be available or else one has to nerf to off map to inferior to their counter parts of other factions.

And don't get me wrong we do share some thoughts.

I do not get you wrong, I more than happy to debate and explain my point of view to people that behave civilized in this forum. (I simply have no more tolerance for cyber bullies and trolls)

Like you I don't want an emplacement onmap artillery, because we don't want to go back to static UKF emplacement play. UKF needs something mobile, more fragile instead (risk/reward). Emplacement play was bad in those days and it will be bad in these days again.
Like you I don't like the Heavy Sappers in their current form, there would be so much potential for a more versatile play style.
Bolster is another feature that doesn't work like it should, I'm with you there.

nice to see we agree on some points

But changes like cutting Bren damage output to half of its former peformance by remvoving both of them completely at one upgrade and giving only one Bren at the other upgrade sound a little bit drastic if you ask me. There has to be something to make up for such a drastic change. That was missing in your post and lead to mine.

Part of the problem with balancing UKF is that their unit simply come with too many gimmicks.

Take for instance the Comet it come with war speed, 80 range WP shell grenades, commander that provided accuracy sight, XP gain, detection, 50 range. Now one can balance a unit base stat rather easily but all these gimmicks add more value to unit and makes balancing harder.

Imo it the same with IS, the unit comes with heavy cover, dual weapon, grenades, sight bonuses, heal, off map. That make the unit hard to balance.

The suggestion aim to make heal and sight bonus an optional/support upgrade for IS so that the double weapon upgrade is trade off for these goodies. If there balance issue they can be adjusted.

UKF

Stock units:

Company Command Post
Centaur:
The mobility buff are not bad but now it has far superior armor than the Oswtind with a similar price.

Another issue with the unit is that with cost of 320/100 the gap with Cromwell (340/110) is very small and since the bofors is not always available it might not be an attractive alternative.

Suggestions:
Lower the power level of the unit and balance it around 80 fuel price. Increase build time of tech research time to delay the unit.

Change vet bonuses since the vet 2 mobility bonuses is probably too much especially combined with "war speed"

FF

Suggestions:
Fix the "mid" range at 30 as most vehicles instead of 45.

Replace the accuracy bonus with a penetration one.



QF 17p
Unit arrive too early should be move.

Suggestions:
Lock unit behind Anvil/Hammer.

Experimental:
Lower range 60, lower cost/pop.
Allow a second upgrade similar to mortar that bring the unit to current performance.

Hammer

Heavy Gammon
Move this ability to sapper with an upgrade to heavy sapper that includes the armor bonus.

That would help solidify "heavy sappers" as an offensive upgrade while removed a anti building weapon from unit that should not have like a mainline infatry.

Comet

I am against the fuel increase in Comet's that will only have an small impact in 1v1 games. The problem with Comet is that it shut down T3/PzIV units while at the same time it shuts down ATG with warspeed, WP and Grenades.

Suggestion:
Revert Fuel or even lower Fuel price.

Solidify Comet at Premium medium tank without the ant ATG capabilities. Remove WP and grenades increase AI of mg as needed.

Anvil

"Heavy engineer"
The combination of increased repairs speed, armor (combined with small target size) and Lmg that takes no weapon slot is simply too much.

Suggestions:
Lose the combat bonuses and make the upgrade cheaper.
or
lose armor and upgrade now give a combination of rifles and LMG taking up 1 weapon slot.

Churchill
The unit is receiving a triple buff for no good reason (commander/ROF/Pop). This unit is very durable while it has damage out put similar to Cromwell, it comes with a number of gimmics with abnormal stat (rear armor, mobility) and imo is is simply too much. It should be redesigned (as it in real life) as a unit that can take punishment but relies to synergy with other units.

Suggestions:

Reduce acceleration and rotation to the level of other heavy tanks reduce rear armor by at lest 20. Remove vet mobility bonuses not fit for a heavy tank and add armor/HP bonuses (reducing bases stat to reduce shock value)

Redesign the unit as AI oriented with by reducing penetration and adding WP/Smoke shell.

Increase synergy with infatry by changing the smoke ability to work like in real life and in game provide "cover status" like commandos grenades.

Adjust price if needed.

Doctrinal Staff

Valentine Mk IX
Remove shared veterancy since other command vehicles do not have it either.

Experimental:
Move barrage to assault officer and the unit to special weapons.

UKF M3
This unit is extremely badly designed (with ability to give weapons to teamates) and need some changes

Suggestions:
Lower CP to 3 as M5.
Lower cost to 250/20 since it inferior to M5. Now can upgrade to 50/15 to provide weapons without require to unlock weapon in base. The change aim to make unit cheaper when used as transport.

Experimental:
Unit can now set up and owner units can move to it to equip Vicker-K or completely remove the mechanism and infatry have the option to upgrade with Vickers K.

Hold the line
The ability is broken in large mods while hard to use in 1vs1.

Suggestions:
Redesign the ability. Ability now available at CP 6, now cost 80-120, planes replaced by a single loitering plane on the sector activated or airstrikes completely removed removed. Defense bonuses stay.

Centaur
FF
QF 17p
Heavy engineer
Churchill
UKF M3

Some remarks:

QF 17pd
Later: yes
Less range: Definitely not. It should get slighlty more range than elephant/Jagdtiger to not get picked up by these. With 10 range less this would be even more hilarious.

FF
From all allied TDs it is the one I wouldn't discuss to change anything more. It has its downsides with very low RoF, low speed/acc and very unreliable rockets. Some more turret speed is a good change. Its not too good, really doesn't need a nerf.

Centaur
No, I would see the Ostwind on top. Reason: survivability. You are overestimating the changes. While Ostwind can escape some of its allied tank threads Centaur still gets caught up by units like PZIV, Panther or StuG to get that one or two extra shots off and destroy it. Ostwind can escape more easily. In addition Panzershrek pens Centaur with his far superior armor 100% frontally at long range, that is not the case with low armor Ostwind and all allied infantry AT weaponary. And while Centaur has no access to smoke Ostwind really gets a panic button with doctrinal Panzertactican. All told Centaur has a harder live. It is still easier to vet up an Ostwind.

Churchill
Just want to point out that it says nothing that it is called a "triple buff", because two of them are very small (RoF and population). A low angle rocket attack for Panzerwerfer is only a single buff for example but a really big one. Just for comparison that "triple" is worth nothing here.
I would reduce its price and population even further, nerf damage and penetration and give it slightly better AOE and strong MG damage. So it would be much more of an infantry killer with consistent damage output that really struggles to keep up in a fight with an Ostheer PZIV. The infantry supressing Panzer Shock ability in CoH1 was a funny one, would have loved to see it here too.
Thick smoke is far better, to assault MG supported positions. I wouldn't change it.

UKF M3
The commander is pretty dead if you ask me since the Rifle boys are not allowed to be upgraded anymore with heal/recon and Sappers got an AT grenade. For a mobile halftrack you are better off with Land Lease commander and its M5, because he has better abilities in overall.


IS and Sappers/Heavy sappers
The basic problem of UKF is that is basically only has one combat infantry unit. Even USF with Riflemen centrism has more, because Rear Echelons have the very useful smoke nade, a suppression ability and are a nice cheap AT unit, when equipped with two bazookas. In addition Rear Echelons are not very busy with engineer jobs, because of the absence of real mines and the existence of USF vehicle crews for repairing. Sappers on the other side are very busy with laying mines, building emplacements and repairing vehicles/emplacements. In their sparetime they are a cc unit theoretically, but they can't compete with other real cc units, so screw them there. Heavy Sappers with Vickers and two Brens are not worth it either, because it costs way more ammunition than getting IS with two Brens which inflict similar damage because of better long range stats and additional Enfields instead of Stens.
Last but not least you get Sappers when you already have 3-4 partly vetted IS squads, so there is no reason to build multiple Sapper squads.
So IS is forced into beeing the jack of all trades even more than Riflemen. The only way to change this is either drastically change the combat role and timing of normal sappers or add a second nondoctrinal Infantry unit. Then you can take away some of IS abilities and allocate them.

Some remarks:

Thanks for taking the time of reading and responding to my post.
QF 17pd
I am not sure the suggestions was clear to you. The idea is that the two version of the weapon similar to mortar one is cheaper but has limited range but can be upgraded to its current power.

This not nerf but easier access to a version of the unit with lower power level.


FF
The suggestion is not nerf the unit either. Most unit use mid range as half their max range. I suspect that at an earlier stage FF had a superior range and now it is left with mid range of 45 which is superior even to Elef/JT/ISU. This more of "bug" that needs to be fixed.

The accuracy change to penetration is also buff vs super heavies tanks.

Centaur
Centaur has 160/80 armor and 18 target size while ostwind has 110/55 armor and 22 target...


Churchill
Churchill has absolutely no problem killing a PzIV even the PzIV is parked in rear.


M3
The commander is far from dead, try hold the line in 4vs4 and see what happens.

Heavy sapper
The durability of heavy sapper once vetted is superior to most elite infatry with a combination of target size 0.59 and 1.25 armor they have effective of around 170 HP for a total 850 EHP and 3 LMG having and a reinforcement cost reduction. Even if they do not beat the enemy infatry they win the attrition fight. I am pretty sure vet 3 heavy sapper with 3 lmg will beat vet 3 IS with 2 bren.

The heavy sapper are simply badly designed and need redesign. Feel free to make you own suggestion.

(correct the centaur armor value thank to general_gawain for the correction)

Heavy sapper
The durability of heavy sapper once vetted is superior to most elite infatry with a combination of target size 0.59 and 1.25 armor they have effective of around 170 HP for a total 850 EHP and 3 LMG having and a reinforcement cost reduction. Even if they do not beat the enemy infatry they win the attrition fight. I am pretty sure vet 3 heavy sapper with 3 lmg will beat vet 3 IS with 2 bren.

The heavy sapper are simply badly designed and need redesign. Feel free to make you own suggestion.

I have tested them some time ago and they still lose by a decent margin because of the lack of any offensive vet (vet 1 is just for Stens).

The easy way to go with this upgrade would just be removing the Vickers LMG and reducing the cost, giving Vickers to Sappers doesn't make much sense anyway. That's better than nerfing it by letting it take a weapon slot, so Sappers still have the option to upgrade 2 PIATs.

Make your bets, will "Hold the ground" be:

A) The new allied Close the pocket cheese
B) New CHAD pre nerf "Perimeter Overwatch".
C) Virgin "Sector Artillery"