[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

DPS ranges 10/20/35

Penal squad vet 3
41.3/33.6/20.6

LMG Grenadier squad vet 3
23.9/27.1/23.7

ST44 VG sqaud vet 3
33.2/24.4/11.7

Any particular reason you ignore rifles(you know, the only unit in game penals can be directly compared to in relation to scaling) vanila and with dual bar every single time when you make this kind of comparison?

If it because it makes your post completely random and pointless?

Any particular reason you ignore rifles(you know, the only unit in game penals can be directly compared to in relation to scaling) vanila and with dual bar every single time when you make this kind of comparison?

If it because it makes your post completely random and pointless?

Here you go:
1bar vet3 Rifleman have 37,4/24/15 dmg at range 10/20/35.
2bar vet3 Rifleman have 41,4/28,3/18,21 dmg at range 10/20/35.
Compare this to 41.3/33.6/20.6 and you see that Penals have almost the same dmg(or even more dmg at some ranges) as double bar Riflemen. In the mod they lose some off the dmg for rec acc that puts them in the same league as Obers, Sections and Rifleman (effective HP). And then there is the vet 1 that straight up buffs their combat power and makes the fact that they lose 1/6 dmg per model rather negledible.

Conclusion: There is absolutly no! fucking reason to give Penals a combat buff or weapon upgrade with t4.

I really like Penals and im an oldschool Penal+su76 player and even i dont see a 7th man Penal upgrade happen with the current gamestate. But im all in for some extra utility with t4. Give them something funny to do or something special. Smoke, sprint, faster capping, vehicle repair, idk. Depends ofc if only unpgraded Penals get that or both.

And about Penals Ptrs and weapon drops in general: It felt like Penals drop Ptrs way too fast in the mod. Maybe this could be adjusted. I think units shouldnt drop weapons when they dont die. I dont know why players get randomly punished when their squads lose models. Its ok if you lose your squad and drop the weapon, thats clearly a missplay, but otherwise?

Penals don't need any combat buffs or nerfs. Give them the ability to carry 3 PTSR so that double PTSR penals can synergize well with conscripts (especially with merge to reward good micro merges in base) and they can choose to be either AT defensively proficient or offensive. AT upgrades give them the snare + satchel, but would remove maybe one ability that is more AI oriented (say they start or unlock with vet some ability that gets locked once double AT options are taken (2x 1st, 3rd PTSR 2nd))

Penals don't need any combat buffs or nerfs. Give them the ability to carry 3 PTSR so that double PTSR penals can synergize well with conscripts (especially with merge to reward good micro merges in base) and they can choose to be either AT defensively proficient or offensive. AT upgrades give them the snare + satchel, but would remove maybe one ability that is more AI oriented (say they start or unlock with vet some ability that gets locked once double AT options are taken (2x 1st, 3rd PTSR 2nd))

Triple PTRS is already on penals in the balance mod.

If an upgrade package for Penals doesn't end up happening here's maybe another idea. Essentially just giving Penals a few QOL upgrades once mobilize reserves is out.

Mobilize Reserves now gives Penals:
-3 reinforcement cost (1 manpower cheaper than the current test version)
+20% Vet Gain
Build time from 32 to 28 (-4 seconds)

This would hopefully make the loss of a Penal a bit easier to recover from in the late game without causing any other real changes to them. Could also do some more radical changes and look to maybe offer them like some sort of utility like a faster capping speed could also help with how late game they can struggle in holding points and making them preform better at counter attacks.

Any particular reason you ignore rifles(you know, the only unit in game penals can be directly compared to in relation to scaling) vanila and with dual bar every single time when you make this kind of comparison?

Feel free to add them if you think they are relevant.

As you can see from Geblobt's post including does not really change anything and actually is another nail to the coffin of you weapon upgrade theory.

If it because it makes your post completely random and pointless?

Different here year,same katitof, still projecting your flaws on to others, face it it your posts that are completely random and pointless.

M-42 also needs a target size increase.

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M-42 also needs a target size increase.

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Why?

Its 16 target size reflects well its size.

Since you seem to just randomly quote things and not read them, allow me to remind you that puppchen had target size of TEN and there are no problems hitting that of 16, because 16 is much larger then 10.

Any particular reason you ignore rifles(you know, the only unit in game penals can be directly compared to in relation to scaling) vanila and with dual bar every single time when you make this kind of comparison?

If it because it makes your post completely random and pointless?

How are Riflemen the only unit directly comparable to Penals?

How are Riflemen the only unit directly comparable to Penals?

Because they are another main line (let's consider Penals as main line for the sake of the argument) with semi-auto rifles I guess.

Because they are another main line (let's consider Penals as main line for the sake of the argument) with semi-auto rifles I guess.

Volks, Cons, IS and Grens are also mainlines. If a unit has a semi, full auto or bolt action rifle is - for the most part - only a visual feature. The stats are what matter.

Its 16 target size reflects well its size.

So where are your complaints to the Raketenwerfer changes?

How are Riflemen the only unit directly comparable to Penals?

Weapon profile, cost, how many you can field before your economy breaks completely, scaling(weapon upgrades+incredibly strong defensive vet vs strong offensive vet and squishiness as 2 opposing approaches to scaling basically the same baseline), both are balanced with very restricted and limited access to support weapons.

Tho I'm willing to listen why and how you would compare them to volks or grens, (both of which have a plethora of supporting units behind them from the early game) from someone who does not have raging hate boner against them.

You could stretch that to PFs, but PFs still benefit from wide array of supporting units with no restrictions and they themselves trade firepower for shitload of utility.

Why?

"
The Raketenwerfer M-42 is having its target size increased to match other anti-tank guns. This should have no impact when the gun is crewed, but will make abandoned Raketenwerfers M-42 easier to destroy.

Gun target size from 10 16 to 20"

Its 16 target size reflects well its size.

Raketenwerfer of 10 target size reflects well its size.

Since you seem to just randomly quote things and not read them, allow me to remind you that puppchen had target size of TEN and there are no problems hitting that of 16, because 16 is much larger then 10.

Projecting your flaw on to tohers

DPS ranges 10/20/35

Penal squad vet 3
41.3/33.6/20.6

LMG Grenadier squad vet 3
23.9/27.1/23.7

ST44 VG sqaud vet 3
33.2/24.4/11.7


1bar vet3 Rifleman have 37,4/24/15 dmg at range 10/20/35.
2bar vet3 Rifleman have 41,4/28,3/18,21 dmg at range 10/20/35.
(number provided by Geblobt)

Note that Penal have superior DPS that double bar riflemen at ranges above 10.

As for people who claim that some others unit should also be included, I advice them to the provide the stat themselves instead of coming up with conspiracy theories.

Weapon profile, cost, how many you can field before your economy breaks completely, scaling(weapon upgrades+incredibly strong defensive vet vs strong offensive vet and squishiness as 2 opposing approaches to scaling basically the same baseline), both are balanced with very restricted and limited access to support weapons.

Tho I'm willing to listen why and how you would compare them to volks or grens, (both of which have a plethora of supporting units behind them from the early game) from someone who does not have raging hate boner against them.

You could stretch that to PFs, but PFs still benefit from wide array of supporting units with no restrictions and they themselves trade firepower for shitload of utility.

Half of your arguments reflect the early game. You specifically mentioned scaling, which has nothing to do with the early game.

Rifles vet like almost any other mainline infantry, Penals' feature is a 69% (eheheh) accuracy boost in exchange for less RA unlike basically ALL of the other mainlines. You even say that yourself and conclude that this makes them comparable? Also, Penal builds have fuck all snares unless you upgrade them and gimp their AI.

All other mainlines feature weapon upgrades, snare. Rifles are not as support starved as they you claim now for months. A 260 MP+60 MUN Volks squad is much closer price wise than a 280+120 Riflemen squad.
But still what is the point? Geblobt even did the maths for you for Rifles and vet3 Penals are still decent.

Half of your arguments reflect the early game. You specifically mentioned scaling, which has nothing to do with the early game.

Rifles vet like almost any other mainline infantry, Penals' feature is a 69% (eheheh) accuracy boost in exchange for less RA unlike basically ALL of the other mainlines. You even say that yourself and conclude that this makes them comparable? Also, Penal builds have fuck all snares unless you upgrade them and gimp their AI.

Yeah, scaling of one works, while other clearly not as evidenced by attempted changes.
Scaling of all other infantry somehow works and there is a common denominator here, specifically weapon upgrade.
You also seem to be under completely incorrect impression that penals are getting a vet buff.
They are not.
They are getting vet swap.

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And I'm fine with them not having a snare, non upgraded ones shouldn't have it anyway, we already have cons for that, that was never a problem, no one sane complained about that and I don't know why you bring it up.

All other mainlines feature weapon upgrades. A 260 MP+60 MUN Volks squad is much closer price wise than a 280+120 Riflemen squad.
But still what is the point? Geblobt even did the maths for you for Rifles and vet3 Penals are still decent.

My point is that accuracy alone isn't everything.
Rifles more then make up for their lack of accuracy exactly through the weapon upgrades and potent defensive vet, but you aren't going to see it with just accuracy.
Veterancy is not accuracy increase exclusively, which makes vippers comparison post completely pointless and missleading(as usual).
Penals have exclusively vet and that was proven to be insufficient.
On top of that, penals are now LOSING some of that accuracy to get received accuracy that was TAKEN AWAY in the patch that introduced PTRS to them already, I consider this a token change that will achieve nothing, because being more durable in small arms firefight does not mean much, when you suddenly deal proportionally less damage too.

We are literally walking with penals the exact same road we walked with cons.
The exact same one.
Because they suffer from the exact same problems cons did and we all pretend its a completely different case now somehow because why exactly? Because they have higher base stats? Duh, they also have much higher base cost.

The sole fact people attempt to compare their performance of much cheaper squads is a testament to their insufficient through vet scaling.

And again, one last time, they are NOT getting any vet buff this patch, they are getting stat swap, less accuracy for more durability, which will achieve nothing, because its NOT a buff.

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Rifles more then make up for their lack of accuracy exactly through the weapon upgrades and potent defensive vet, but you aren't going to see it with just accuracy.

Veterancy is not accuracy increase exclusively, which makes vippers comparison post completely pointless and missleading(as usual).
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Let me try to see if I get this straight:
According to you if DPS comparison that I provide does not include riflemen it is "completely random and pointless"

Still according to you it does include riflemen as you have suggested then the "post completely pointless and missleading(as usual)" because they do not include weapon upgrade EHP.

Now allow me to point out that BAR are included in the comparison as you suggested.

Now if I include EFP will that make you happy or will you come up with a new reason why it is "random and useless'?

Finally since you seem to think that comparison is some how "misleading" I challenge you provide a comparison that in your opinion will be the correct one.

Until you do, I suggest that you stop accusing me of being "misleading" and try to focus on the topic of the thread that is actually not me.

Yeah, scaling of one works, while other clearly not as evidenced by attempted changes.
Scaling of all other infantry somehow works and there is a common denominator here, specifically weapon upgrade.

And all of that refers to Rifles being the ONLY comparable mainline with Penals exactly... how?

You also seem to be under completely incorrect impression that penals are getting a vet buff.
They are not.
They are getting vet swap.
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And I'm fine with them not having a snare, non upgraded ones shouldn't have it anyway, we already have cons for that, that was never a problem, no one sane complained about that and I don't know why you bring it up.

I did not discuss the current changes at all. The only thing I asked you is to explain how Rifles are "the only comparable unit in relation to sclaing" to Penals. I pointed out that they are not, because Rifles scale like any other mainline, unlike Penals.

Btw I also aske why M-42 is fine at size 16 because of 'real life reasons' while Raketenwerfer is not.

My point is that accuracy alone isn't everything.
Rifles more then make up for their lack of accuracy exactly through the weapon upgrades and potent defensive vet, but you aren't going to see it with just accuracy.
Veterancy is not accuracy increase exclusively, which makes vippers comparison post completely pointless and missleading(as usual).

Fully agree that comparing DPS alone only gives half the picture. Still this is now the first time you actually raise that point, you did not seem to have this specific issue when you commented. You are free to provide some form of survivability metric and set his points right.

Penals have exclusively vet and that was proven to be insufficient.
On top of that, penals are now LOSING some of that accuracy to get received accuracy that was TAKEN AWAY in the patch that introduced PTRS to them already, I consider this a token change that will achieve nothing, because being more durable in small arms firefight does not mean much, when you suddenly deal proportionally less damage too.

Yes yes I fully agree. Scaling of Rifles and Penals works very very differently.

We are literally walking with penals the exact same road we walked with cons.
The exact same one.
Because they suffer from the exact same problems cons did and we all pretend its a completely different case now somehow because why exactly? Because they have higher base stats? Duh, they also have much higher base cost.

The sole fact people attempt to compare their performance of much cheaper squads is a testament to their insufficient through vet scaling.

And again, one last time, they are NOT getting any vet buff this patch, they are getting stat swap, less accuracy for more durability, which will achieve nothing, because its NOT a buff.

Again, 300 MP is not "much cheaper" than 260 MP + 60 MUN. Or 280 MP plus 120 MUN. At least not at any rank above 2000 where people still float 500 muni.
Penals do not suffer the exact same way Conscripts did, this is why they STILL do not get a AI-weapon upgrade. Rebuilding a Penal in the late game gives you as much firepower as rebuilding a Volks and upgrading Stgs. They just bleed you like hell, hence the MP reinforcement reduction for the late game only and the vet change to better defensive vet.

Again, 300 MP is not "much cheaper" than 260 MP + 60 MUN. Or 280 MP plus 120 MUN. At least not at any rank above 2000 where people still float 500 muni.
Penals do not suffer the exact same way Conscripts did, this is why they STILL do not get a AI-weapon upgrade. Rebuilding a Penal in the late game gives you as much firepower as rebuilding a Volks and upgrading Stgs. They just bleed you like hell, hence the MP reinforcement reduction for the late game only and the vet change to better defensive vet.

You rebuild infantry only to cap, build sandbags and snares. Bonus points if you have special abilities or grenades.