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Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?

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4 Jan 2021, 17:01 PM
#201
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356



You clearly don't play soviets against decent OST. By the time PGs come it's usually 1 engi 4 cons vs 1 pio, 3grens, MG + coming PG. What greater numbers are you talking about?


Even in your completely non-sequitur example OST has payed 40 more manpower for their less mobile on-field composition.

I want you to ask yourself what you're really trying to communicate in this thread, because the only reason I can think of for why someone would post a typical 3x gren build vs a 4x conscript build in response to a point about Pgrens is that what's actually going on is that you're personally struggling in your SOV vs OST match-up and just want a weaker OST because losing sucks.
4 Jan 2021, 17:28 PM
#202
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Even in your completely non-sequitur example OST has payed 40 more manpower for their less mobile on-field composition.

I want you to ask yourself what you're really trying to communicate in this thread, because the only reason I can think of for why someone would post a typical 3x gren build vs a 4x conscript build in response to a point about Pgrens is that what's actually going on is that you're personally struggling in your SOV vs OST match-up and just want a weaker OST because losing sucks.


the fact that you mention the sniper and the clown car in a SOV vs OST matchup shows that you have no idea how to play the soviets... try commenting after youve played them mate...
4 Jan 2021, 17:35 PM
#203
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Even in your completely non-sequitur example OST has payed 40 more manpower for their less mobile on-field composition.

I want you to ask yourself what you're really trying to communicate in this thread, because the only reason I can think of for why someone would post a typical 3x gren build vs a 4x conscript build in response to a point about Pgrens is that what's actually going on is that you're personally struggling in your SOV vs OST match-up and just want a weaker OST because losing sucks.


OH starts with +30mp and a +30mp more expensive unit (170mp CE vs 200mp Pio).

This is OH tech cost.
T1: 80/10
BP1: 100/40
Medic: 150/0/60
T2: 100/20

This is SU tech cost.
T1: 160/10
T2: 160/15
Medics: 200
Grenade: 150/15
T3: 240/85
Upgrade: 100/20


As OH, going non meta T1, means a total cost of 430mp/70f/60mu. 350mp/60f/60mu if you skip T1.
As SU, going T2-nades, means a total cost of 510mp/30f. Getting T3 cost 750mp/115f


I don't see how Soviets get the T70 in a timely fashion nor how they outnumber OH with squads.

I'll say it again, i don't think PG are as much of an issue. But in the comparison you guys are making with SU, i think it's a problem of how much mp inefficient is the tech, specially for the first 10 mins of the game.


4 Jan 2021, 17:54 PM
#204
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356




I don't see how Soviets get the T70 in a timely fashion nor how they outnumber OH with squads.




Well you'd see how if you actually read the thread and realized that the original point is that SOVs will have more squads than OST will have Pgrens, because yknow, Pgrens are 340 manpower.

Instead you just mod a forum wherin people dishonestly shift their goal every post without any repercussions, and you encourage it by going along.

Look at this post:

the fact that you mention the sniper and the clown car in a SOV vs OST matchup shows that you have no idea how to play the soviets... try commenting after youve played them mate...


What did this post communicate? On it's face all he's doing is quoting me, and then insulting the opinion, but if we look closer he's not quoting me. The board has a quote function ffs so why wouldn't he use it?

Oh. It's because he's misquoting me, and insulting his own strawman. In the original post I mentioned clown car as a counter to Pgrens, which it is. If you can force shreks with a clown car it's still a cost effective investment. Now OST has grens it's true, but grens were not the original context, pgrens were.

Effective mods delete this dishonest crap and punish users for lying, but instead 9/10s of the posts on this board seem to be logical fallacy par excellence.
4 Jan 2021, 18:17 PM
#205
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97



In the original post I mentioned clown car as a counter to Pgrens, which it is.


There is no need for misquoting you or making a strawman arguments when you say something like this.

Please just play soviets in 1v1 and tell me how viable T1 is against OST. So far it seems that you don't have enough experience to justify your opinion so you come up with ideas completely disconnected from real state of things.







I'll say it again, i don't think PG are as much of an issue. But in the comparison you guys are making with SU, i think it's a problem of how much mp inefficient is the tech, specially for the first 10 mins of the game.



When you put it like that it seems that adjusting soviet teching costs may be a solution to the problem of early PGs but then you have to think about OKW match-up and it all gets complicated again:S
4 Jan 2021, 18:19 PM
#206
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Well you'd see how if you actually read the thread and realized that the original point is that SOVs will have more squads than OST will have Pgrens, because yknow, Pgrens are 340 manpower.

Instead you just mod a forum wherin people dishonestly shift their goal every post without any repercussions, and you encourage it by going along.

Look at this post:



What did this post communicate? On it's face all he's doing is quoting me, and then insulting the opinion, but if we look closer he's not quoting me. The board has a quote function ffs so why wouldn't he use it?

Oh. It's because he's misquoting me, and insulting his own strawman. In the original post I mentioned clown car as a counter to Pgrens, which it is. If you can force shreks with a clown car it's still a cost effective investment. Now OST has grens it's true, but grens were not the original context, pgrens were.

Effective mods delete this dishonest crap and punish users for lying, but instead 9/10s of the posts on this board seem to be logical fallacy par excellence.



no your original post was



SOV doesn't struggle against Pgrens primarily since they 1) have the sniper and clown car, and 2) can easily control the map through greater numbers. What they struggle with is Ostruppen nullifying the early map control advantage they ought to be owed vs a teching enemy.



1.) anyone who says sniper and clowncar counters ostheer as of the current meta is either a liar or has not played the game for 2 years...

2.) incorrect since SOV also pays ridiculous amounts of resources through tech as elchino already pointed out... but maybe you are too dense to understand vipper 2.0
4 Jan 2021, 18:22 PM
#207
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



When you put it like that it seems that adjusting soviet teching costs may be a solution to the problem of early PGs but then you have to think about OKW match-up and it all gets complicated again:S


the solution is to adjust both OKW and SOV teching costs... SOV teching costs the most MP while OKW costs the most fuel... adjusting both then removing those pointless sidetechs for sov would make both factions alot better...
4 Jan 2021, 18:23 PM
#208
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 18:22 PMgbem


the solution is to adjust both OKW and SOV teching costs... SOV teching costs the most MP while OKW costs the most fuel... adjusting both then removing those pointless sidetechs for sov would make both factions alot better...


But then you have to account for OKW vs UKF and USF... This is a slippery slope and too big of a task.
4 Jan 2021, 18:24 PM
#209
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



But then you have to account for OKW vs UKF and USF... This is a slippery slope and too big of a task.


OKW struggles hard vs UKF/USF... id say making OKW teching a bit less dumb is the best solution to the problem...
4 Jan 2021, 18:27 PM
#210
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

snip


This was your quote:



SOV doesn't struggle against Pgrens primarily since they 1) have the sniper and clown car, and 2) can easily control the map through greater numbers. What they struggle with is Ostruppen nullifying the early map control advantage they ought to be owed vs a teching enemy.


In response to:

And I do think that PGs timing against SOV is just too strong (other allied factions are fine). That's why this topic was started. So it's very tricky to come up with an elegant solution to this.

And this is all about 1v1. In team modes this is a non-issue imo.


Point 1 implies a T1 opening which gives up map control in favour of shocking value units and the 2nd one implies a Conscript opening.

Either case they are not outnumbering OH with units.

You then answered to Katitofs post



T-70 comes a few minutes afterwards and murders everything too!

It's as if the game is some complex dance with tempo and trading of initiative!

Pgrens are 340 manpower while conscripts and penals are 240 and 300 respectively. Pgrens also arrive later. SOV will always be able to build more infantry squads than OST can build Pgrens.


Which is obvious cause by that point in the game you already have enough squads and no one is gonna match 1:1 Conscripts/Penals to PGs in numbers. And originally that was not the point you discuss with nor the issue.


MOD mode on: feel free to report whatever post you feel goes against the rules of the site. You don't have to worry about me cause i don't moderate discussions i'm involved with, so any action will be done by someone else on the team.
4 Jan 2021, 18:29 PM
#211
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

When you put it like that it seems that adjusting soviet teching costs may be a solution to the problem of early PGs but then you have to think about OKW match-up and it all gets complicated again:S


Which is the reason we are getting OKW been able to back tech to BHQ in an easier way so they can get proper healing if they go mechanized.

Same with the timings for Flak HQ.
4 Jan 2021, 18:37 PM
#212
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



OH starts with +30mp and a +30mp more expensive unit (170mp CE vs 200mp Pio).
...

Pioneer are not 30MP combat efficient that CE especially with latest buffs.
4 Jan 2021, 18:40 PM
#213
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356




Point 1 implies a T1 opening which gives up map control in favour of shocking value units and the 2nd one implies a Conscript opening.

Either case they are not outnumbering OH with units.



SOV doesn't struggle against Pgrens primarily 1) have the sniper and clown car, and 2) can easily control the map through greater numbers


FFS it says right there "Pgrens primarily". At no point is t1 or anything other than Pgrens implied.

Can people just not own up to things?


If anyone thinks that clown cars and snipers don't counter Pgrens feel free to 1v1 me. I'll play SOV with engies clown car and sniper. You can play OST with pios and Pgrens.
4 Jan 2021, 18:43 PM
#214
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 18:37 PMVipper

Pioneer are not 30MP combat efficient that CE especially with latest buffs.


Did he imply that? He just stated a fact...




If anyone thinks that clown cars and snipers don't counter Pgrens feel free to 1v1 me. I'll play SOV with engies clown car and sniper. You can play OST with pios and Pgrens.


Ost with pios, grens, pgrens and everything else? I can play you if you want. Not that it proves anything.
4 Jan 2021, 18:49 PM
#215
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


FFS it says right there "Pgrens primarily". At no point is t1 or anything other than Pgrens implied.

Can people just not own up to things?




SOV doesn't struggle against Pgrens primarily 1) have the sniper and clown car, and 2) can easily control the map through greater numbers



you do know that sniper and clown car is in SOV T1 right?
4 Jan 2021, 18:54 PM
#216
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Did he imply that? He just stated a fact...

And I stated a fact also.

Pioneer hardly has any advantage combat wise to CE. One could argue that CE flamer is actually stronger due to merge.
4 Jan 2021, 18:56 PM
#217
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 18:49 PMgbem







you do know that sniper and clown car is in SOV T1 right?


Did you know that Pgrens, which are the topic of discussion, aren't in SOV T1?

4 Jan 2021, 19:10 PM
#218
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Did you know that Pgrens, which are the topic of discussion, aren't in SOV T1?







Pip
4 Jan 2021, 19:31 PM
#219
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



Did you know that Pgrens, which are the topic of discussion, aren't in SOV T1?



I'm really not sure if this is supposed to be a joke post.

The fact you suggest that The Clown Car and Sniper can be used as counters to Pgrens suggests that either;

A: The soviet player has gone Tier 1 against Ostheer, which isnt advisable.

B: The Soviet player has backteched to Tier 1 after a Tier 2 opening in order to counter Pgrens. This is even less advisable, and results in the counter being inefficient, and you delaying your T70 significantly. (The extra delay here, particularly if you decide to tech reactively, means the Ostheer player is likely to be able to also get his 222 out and directly counter both the clown car and sniper.)

The argument that these units are "counters" to Pgrens is immaterial, as you simply will not see the units in a normal match vs Ostheer. In a vacuum they do the job, but you will not have access to them, and so this is irrelevant.
4 Jan 2021, 19:36 PM
#220
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

Only one of these statements can be true:

A) Pgrens are extremely hard for soviets to deal with and imbalance the match-up
B) The soviet counters to Pgrens are not worth building
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