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Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?

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5 Jan 2021, 11:09 AM
#241
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:03 AMgbem

SOV teching costs even more than ost teching... adding buildings into the equation hurts your argument even further...


The main issue is that non relevant builds were selected. Pgrens arrive early when a build is tailored for their early arrival. You do not list an x2 gren build when talking about pgren rush strats. You list the proper builds which are double pio double mg or osttruppen, neither of which were mentioned.
5 Jan 2021, 11:12 AM
#242
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



The main issue is that non relevant builds were selected. Pgrens arrive early when a build is tailored for their early arrival. You do not list an x2 gren build when talking about pgren rush strats. You list the proper builds which are double pio double mg or osttruppen, neither of which were mentioned.


doesnt change the fact that soviet teching is still retardedly expensive when contrasted to any other faction manpower wise... which hurts the argument of SOV being able to control the map due to having more units...
5 Jan 2021, 11:17 AM
#243
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:12 AMgbem


doesnt change the fact that soviet teching is still retardedly expensive when contrasted to any other faction manpower wise... which hurts the argument of SOV being able to control the map due to having more units...

Map control and total tech cost is not really related.

Soviet going for conscripts build can cap the map pretty fast.

5 Jan 2021, 11:19 AM
#244
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:17 AMVipper

Map control and total tech cost is not really related.

Soviet going for conscripts build can cap the map pretty fast.



incorrect... the soviet player may control the map initially but then will be weak at defending it since they are unable to tech to their lategame efficiently...

an ostheer player meanwhile can play the map control game with ostruppen and has the low teching costs to be able to defend it with lategame units efficiently...
5 Jan 2021, 11:30 AM
#245
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:17 AMVipper

Map control and total tech cost is not really related.

Soviet going for conscripts build can cap the map pretty fast.



Completely wrong, these two game mechanics are fundamentally linked together. I'm sure you're very knowledgable of map control vial osttruppen, PG rush, or alternatively, your wrong example of Conscripts winning, but resulting in a loss if Sov doesn't tech efficiently. Map control and any tech cost is related.
5 Jan 2021, 11:34 AM
#246
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:17 AMVipper

Map control and total tech cost is not really related.

Tell me, why do you think there are massive concerns for british teching and map control once IS loses their cap bonus?

Small hint:
Tech costs, specifically fuel is directly connected with factions ability to cap and hold the map.

This is why Penal opening soviets tech SLOW and osttruppen Ost techs so fast it needed multiple slaps to keep in check.

These two are not only related, they are completely interweaved with each other.
5 Jan 2021, 11:48 AM
#247
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:19 AMgbem


incorrect... the soviet player may control the map initially but then will be weak at defending it since they are unable to tech to their lategame efficiently...

That is actually my point so it was correct

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:19 AMgbem

an ostheer player meanwhile can play the map control game with ostruppen and has the low teching costs to be able to defend it with lategame units efficiently...

You are talking about osttr and not Ostheer. Ostheer can not cap the map faster conscripts with grenadier build order
5 Jan 2021, 11:50 AM
#248
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:48 AMVipper

That is actually my point so it was correct


your point is moot when it achieves nothing... the soviet player will never be able to defend it due to retarded teching costs
5 Jan 2021, 11:52 AM
#249
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:50 AMgbem


your point is moot when it achieves nothing... the soviet player will never be able to defend it due to retarded teching costs

Conscripts behind sandbag can defend point adequately.
5 Jan 2021, 11:54 AM
#250
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:52 AMVipper

Conscripts behind sandbag can defend point adequately.


you mean the sandbag that got nerfed?

thats odd... i thought u were on sanders side when he defended the sandbag nerf... i though u were with the idea that it was a "nerf to all factions".... are we finally understanding things with context?



sanders93 take note...
5 Jan 2021, 11:57 AM
#251
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:52 AMVipper

Conscripts behind sandbag can defend point adequately.


So you are saying con sandbag nerf is unjust and unneeded in the context of unit?
5 Jan 2021, 11:58 AM
#252
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:52 AMVipper

Conscripts behind sandbag can defend point adequately.


You'd be right that they are almost satisfactory if only and only if sandbags were not nerfed ... wait, they were.
5 Jan 2021, 12:01 PM
#253
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:54 AMgbem


you mean the sandbag that got nerfed?

thats odd... i thought u were on sanders side when he defended the sandbag nerf... i though u were with the idea that it was a "nerf to all factions".... are we finally understanding things with context?



sanders93 take note...

At least they still have unlike grenadier that do not.

The claim that adding 5 sec build-time to sandbag until vet 1, suddenly made conscripts unable to defend is simply silly.

Conscript can cap and defend sector just fine.
5 Jan 2021, 12:03 PM
#254
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 12:01 PMVipper

At least they still have unlike grenadier that do not.

That sentence is factually incorrect and misleading, because it implies grens had it at any point in time.
Please stop trolling, newer players might actually get fooled.

The claim that adding 5 sec build-time to sandbag until vet 1, suddenly made conscripts unable to defend is simply silly.

So you are basically saying the nerf is silly and irrelevant and we could revert it?
5 Jan 2021, 12:05 PM
#255
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 12:01 PMVipper

At least they still have unlike grenadier that do not.


Feel free to show us a time when grenadiers had theirs.
5 Jan 2021, 12:05 PM
#256
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 12:01 PMVipper

At least they still have unlike grenadier that do not.


grens dont even need to put sandbags... unlike conscripts they dont need to close the distance vs the opponent... (unless its sections)

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 12:01 PMVipper

The claim that adding 5 sec build-time to sandbag until vet 1, suddenly made conscripts unable to defend is simply silly.


but it is a nerf nonetheless... therefore youve made the already shitty soviet earlygame even shittier
5 Jan 2021, 12:10 PM
#257
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 11:12 AMgbem


doesnt change the fact that soviet teching is still retardedly expensive when contrasted to any other faction manpower wise... which hurts the argument of SOV being able to control the map due to having more units...


Wasn't disagreeing, was pointing out issues in someone else's argument. As for soviets not being able to control the map despite more units... well id say that unit count doesn't always necessarily equate to stronger map control anyway- clown car flamer vs non PF okw is a good example of this.

That said, where soviets really suffer in mp expenditure is medics, tier 3 and tier 4. Unfortunately delaying tier 3 timing is currently necessary due to how powerful t70 is. I think I'd like to see tier 3 costs reduced and T70 require an unlock. This would help T34s hit the field earlier and make M5 more viable while not changing the T70 timing.
5 Jan 2021, 13:06 PM
#258
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 12:05 PMgbem


grens dont even need to put sandbags... unlike conscripts they dont need to close the distance vs the opponent... (unless its sections)



but it is a nerf nonetheless... therefore youve made the already shitty soviet earlygame even shittier

You are simply mistaken grenadier need heavy cover as much if not more than other infatry.
5 Jan 2021, 13:10 PM
#259
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 13:06 PMVipper

You are simply mistaken grenadier need heavy cover as much if not more than other infatry.


grenadiers dont need heavy cover since they can sit in X cover at long range and expect to trade well against all allied X cover infantry except sections...

conscripts need heavy cover since they need to close the distance or else they lose to all axis mainlines at medium-long range...
5 Jan 2021, 13:12 PM
#260
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 13:10 PMgbem


grenadiers dont need heavy cover since they can sit in X cover at long range and expect to trade well against all allied X cover infantry except sections...

conscripts need heavy cover since they need to close the distance or else they lose to all axis mainlines at medium-long range...

That is simply wrong.
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