Future Balance Items by Relic

Did I say it did?

Yes, you did.

You talked about LMG spam as if it was in anyway relevant to when T3 comes out.

Which made no sensd or relevance at all.
LMG spam would be an impairement to Shreks, but since T70s outrange and truly outfight Shreks, its pointleds anyways.

With the way the factions are designed, Shrekd should be owning the hell out of T70s. But they arent, due ti T70 outranging and out manouvering with ease while killing 1 Pgren per shot easily.

Yes, you did.

You talked about LMG spam as if it was in anyway relevant to when T3 comes out.

Which made no sensd or relevance at all.
LMG spam would be an impairement to Shreks, but since T70s outrange and truly outfight Shreks, its pointleds anyways.

With the way the factions are designed, Shrekd should be owning the hell out of T70s. But they arent, due ti T70 outranging and out manouvering with ease while killing 1 Pgren per shot easily.

Do I really need to spell out to you that spamming LMG42s means that you have less ammo for shrecks and teller mines?

As I said. The only way to get boned by a T70 is when you fail to pick up on the signs that the soviet is going to rush for them.

That is of course, assuming you know how to use your units. Running Pgrens across an open field to get sniped by a T70 is a terrible way to play. Luckily, most maps have these things called buildings and line of sight blockers that can be used to ambush T70s.

If you insist on fighting a rushed T70s in the open, get a bloody rushed StugIII. Getting your first one should happen roughly at the same time your opponent is getting his T70, unless you have been grossly outplayed before that point.

Do I really need to spell out to you that spamming LMG42s means that you have less ammo for shrecks and teller mines? As I said. The only way to get boned by a T70 is when you fail to pick up on the signs that the soviet is going to rush for them. That is of course, assuming you know how to use your units. Running Pgrens across an open field to get sniped by a T70 is a terrible way to play. Luckily, most maps have these things called buildings and line of sight blockers that can be used to ambush T70s. If you insist on fighting a rushed T70s in the open, get a bloody rushed StugIII. Getting your first one should happen roughly at the same time your opponent is getting his T70, unless you have been grossly outplayed before that point.

True enough, but T70s still laugh at Shreks by outranging and outfiring them.

For 120 munis on a 360MP unit that sacrifices AI to get it, thats unnacceptable. I agree that ambushing is the key, but what you arent understanding is that its the T70 that can use the LoS to its advantage, not Shreks.

If you move back and forth from behind cover taking pot shots, the Shrek will NEVER fire at you due to aim time.

This is the problem with balance discussion, we have people who would rarely if ever lose a T70 to shrecks / fausts and then we have players such as Greeb that quite obviously cannot avoid this and it happens on a common basis.

This cause players such as Greeb to think the shrecks are a hard counter when they certainly aren't. Any player worth is salt can easily outmicro a shreck squad with a T70, they don't even die one volley. If you honestly take more than one volley of shrecks you should stick to AI games, or the Sheldt.

Well, or we can say that there are players that doesn't know how to flank and ambush with Pgrens, and there are such players that can do such amazing feat with just two units.

This makes german bad players to rage because their all-mighty expensive Pgrens can't deal with all enemy units and start thinking that maybe everything they can't kill is OP.

Seriously, start generalizing like that is utterly stupid dude.

German snipers too has more LoS than soviet infantry and one-shot models.
Are you implying that a good microed sniper is unkillable and thus is OP??

If you move back and forth from behind cover taking pot shots, the Shrek will NEVER fire at you due to aim time.

Flank with another unit while T70 is doing that. Do you understand the concept of flanking??

For God's sake, stop making scenes where a lone Pgren squad fight with a T70.
We all agree that that doesn't work. Use two fucking units to do the job.

Man, I want to hear the opinion of a good german player (>200 in 1vs1 or 2vs2) to know what he really thinks about T70 current state without Soviet Industry. If they are truly the unbeatable beast that you all tell.

We all agree that that doesn't work. Use two fucking units to do the job.

Thats where you are wrong.

For 120 Muni, 360 MP and loss of 2 AI weapons, Shrek should own the everloving hell out of T70s. Its Sov that should need a flank with support to deal with that.

Compare to Guard vs 222. They own the FUCK out of it and even have better range and aim time than Shreks, for no muni cost, let alone 120.

Thats where you are wrong. For 120 Muni, 360 MP and loss of 2 AI weapons, Shrek should own the everloving hell out of T70s. Its Sov that should need a flank with support to deal with that.

That's your opinion.

I don't think like that at all.
For me PGrens with Shrecks are an AMAZING unit to support your PzIV offensives or flanking Su85's and such, but they are crap if you send them solo to kill tanks from the front.

Compare to Guard vs 222. They own the FUCK out of it and even have better range and aim time than Shreks, for no muni cost, let alone 120.

Because guards are a hardcounter to 222, but in the other hand they do shit against T3 tanks and Panthers, while PGren do a LOT of damage to all enemy armor.
Sorry, I don't want to say this to you, but PGrens are not the all-round unit you want them to be.

Nullist, your reasonig ---> Hey, but guards cost 360 mp plus ammo for the PTRS, they are doctrinal and the only AT soviet infantry!! They should rape all enemy tanks because they're expensive!!!

Just change the word Guards by PGrens.

For 360MP (same as PaK), an additional 120 Munis (same as 2x LMG or 2x Teller or FHT), the Shreks are laughably underperforming vs T70s, due to that units superior range, ability to false out the Shreks fire cycle with mobility and early timing. Especially since the PGrens lose 1/2 their AI efficacy in the process.

Shreks are by design there specifically to counter early T70s. So they do so now, absolutely not.
Sov has a light armor priviledge, Ost has the expensive Shrek to deal with it, is it currently? Hell no.

A T70 can categorically outrange and exp,oit the Shreks aim time with its own mobility and excellent AI
Its too many factors adding up in favor of the T70 when its exactly the Shrek at its high cost and sacrifice that should be the primary early response to T70s before PIvs can hit the field.

For cost, they operate fine vs T34s and later Sov armor. But vs the T70 they are being made a fool of by a cheap early armor unit that can absolutely exploit their range advantage and mobility. In the open field it is ofc the armors priviledge, that belongs to PaKs and armor to counter. But even in close quarters, a T70 is efdectively unShreckable due to moving in and out of LoS or range, while the PGrens lay there doing absolutely nothing. It cant be fired on thr move. A T70 can move ceaselessly in and out of range or LoS while sniping PGrens without even a single Shrek firing.

If you dont see that, you must be categoricalky failing your T70 micro and need to learn the potential of yoyoing. The reload is constant even when moving whereas the Shrek fire is reset everytime it loses its target. With reverse and forward you can move ina nd out of either max range, or LoS to ceaselessly take pot shots at the PGrens without even a single shot going off in return. For 360/120, and loss of 1/2 AI, this is completely unacceptable.

T70s should NEVER be able to come anywhere near Shreks. For the cost, they should be categorically owned for going anywhere near Shreks. In exactly the same way HT and 222 cant go anywhere near Guard.

For 360MP (same as PaK), an additional 120 Munis (same as 2x LMG or 2x Teller or FHT), the Shreks are laughably underperforming vs T70s, due to that units superior range, ability to false out the Shreks fire cycle with mobility and early timing. Especially since the PGrens lose 1/2 their AI efficacy in the process.

Shreks are by design there specifically to counter early T70s. So they do so now, absolutely not.
Sov has a light armor priviledge, Ost has the expensive Shrek to deal with it, is it currently? Hell no.

A T70 can categorically outrange and exp,oit the Shreks aim time with its own mobility and excellent AI
Its too many factors adding up in favor of the T70 when its exactly the Shrek at its high cost and sacrifice that should be the primary early response to T70s before PIvs can hit the field.

For cost, they operate fine vs T34s and later Sov armor. But vs the T70 they are being made a fool of by a cheap early armor unit that can absolutely exploit their range advantage and mobility. In the open field it is ofc the armors priviledge, that belongs to PaKs and armor to counter. But even in close quarters, a T70 is efdectively unShreckable due to moving in and out of LoS or range, while the PGrens lay there doing absolutely nothing. It cant be fired on thr move. A T70 can move ceaselessly in and out of range or LoS while sniping PGrens without even a single Shrek firing.

If you dont see that, you must be categoricalky failing your T70 micro and need to learn the potential of yoyoing. The reload is constant even when moving whereas the Shrek fire is reset everytime it loses its target. With reverse and forward you can move ina nd out of either max range, or LoS to ceaselessly take pot shots at the PGrens without even a single shot going off in return. For 360/120, and loss of 1/2 AI, this is completely unacceptable.

T70s should NEVER be able to come anywhere near Shreks. For the cost, they should be categorically owned for going anywhere near Shreks. In exactly the same way HT and 222 cant go anywhere near Guard.

"they operate fine vs later Sov armor"....pgrens...they get one shot by isu-152,is-2,kv-2,burned to death by kv-8s in seconds....no they don't do fine except vs t3 and maybe t4 if the other guy sucks or gets greedy and puts his su-85s in harms way to chase a damaged tank

Thats where you are wrong.

For 120 Muni, 360 MP and loss of 2 AI weapons, Shrek should own the everloving hell out of T70s. Its Sov that should need a flank with support to deal with that.

Compare to Guard vs 222. They own the FUCK out of it and even have better range and aim time than Shreks, for no muni cost, let alone 120.

You shouldn't compare T-70 with 222. T-70 and Flame Half Track is proper comparison as both are shock AI units and skirmish Guards vs FHT is similar to PG and T-70.

True enough, but T70s still laugh at Shreks by outranging and outfiring them.

Of course? Everything outranges and outfires infantry based AT because they are never optimally used offensively (and NEVER unsupported). Shreks, and to a lesser extent fausts, are what makes it impossible for vehicles to make an offensive charge on a PAK, or StuG. T70s certainly can't outrange and outfire those.

And it is the same for PTRS rifles and AT nades for a ZiS or SU-85.

Shreks are by design there specifically to counter early T70s. So they do so now, absolutely not.

I'm about 100% sure shreks are by design there specifically to give panzergrenadier infantry the ability to deal damage to vehicles.

And I think they do that quite bloody well.

Looks like Nullist never touched vCoH.

Your PaK is your primary AT, your shrecks are along for the ride to counter flankers. Trying to crush every vehicle in your path with handheld AT (a formerly very, very squishy, very soft counter) will either:

A) Have you shot all to hell and forced to retreat.

B) Your PG blob hits critical mass and can run through four T-34s and a pair of Maxims and kill some/most of them while losing 1-4 men (micro be damned, this happens to me far too often--in the context of a 4v4 with your headset leaping off of your face with the TS shouting, arty going everywhere, and blobs of PGs and Panthers roaming the map, it's easier than you'd think to lose units).

Just...no, Shrecks shouldn't be a hardcounter to every damned vehicle in the game. Why has Relic made ATGs such useless things that EVERYONE overlooks them? Rarely if ever do I see a PaK. Even rarer, a ZiS-3. Y'all know what the 'Anti-Tank' in Anti-Tank Gun stands for, right?

Looks like Nullist never touched vCoH.

True. My roots are from DoW2. Came too late to that party.

Well, or we can say that there are players that doesn't know how to flank and ambush with Pgrens, and there are such players that can do such amazing feat with just two units.

This makes german bad players to rage because their all-mighty expensive Pgrens can't deal with all enemy units and start thinking that maybe everything they can't kill is OP.

Seriously, start generalizing like that is utterly stupid dude.

German snipers too has more LoS than soviet infantry and one-shot models.
Are you implying that a good microed sniper is unkillable and thus is OP??



Flank with another unit while T70 is doing that. Do you understand the concept of flanking??

For God's sake, stop making scenes where a lone Pgren squad fight with a T70.
We all agree that that doesn't work. Use two fucking units to do the job.

Man, I want to hear the opinion of a good german player (>200 in 1vs1 or 2vs2) to know what he really thinks about T70 current state without Soviet Industry. If they are truly the unbeatable beast that you all tell.

Oh Greeb

You sound like such a soviet fanboy it's unreal.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198015068579

There's my player card buddy, I believe I qualify for your "Under Rank 200".

T70's are bullshit, my soviet 1v1 games I only played T1 starts (Penals / Sniper Builds) as going fast T3 was just laughably easy. Fortunately I played "Tank Destroyers" alot as PE and know tellar placement very well, T70s are still overpowered as hell for their cost.

You shouldn't have to use 720 Manpower + 120 Munitions to counter ONE T70, by requiring that you swing the game massively in Soviets favour.

That 720 MP and 120 munitions will counter one T70 and every t70 and piece of armor to come pretty well. Paks and shreks remain pretty crucial components of the german army.

Also remember that while panzershreks don't cause engine damage with any reliability (if at all) panzerfausts do. The panzerfaust is one of the best tools early in the game the german army has to counter aggressive soviet vehicle rushes. Engine damage is a great boon to finishing off an enemy vehicle.

T70s kind of have a small time window of effectiveness before being rendered either obsolete or relegated to a minor/defensive role. A well timed faust can cut that short. It can even remove the need for both Paks AND shreks if one or the other is in the right position for a faust.

Soviet Industry completely changes this though.

True. My roots are from DoW2. Came too late to that party.

I meant no offense--however, Riflemen, ATGs, and Shermans was just about everything an American player needed to 'rek Axis skrubz' (surprisingly, when not facing gimmicks, Engie, Con, Con, Con, Con, WSC, ATG, (optional 2d ATG), Tankovy Command, T-34/76, T-34/76 works fairly decently. It also leaves room to throwing Penals, Guards, or Shock Troops. Gets destroyed by doctrine-centered gimmicks or the usual rush VPs -> spam bunkers silliness that permeates team games. Yeah, great, I'm getting the WSC anyhow, but the ZiS-3 might as well be shooting spitballs at the bunkers (the T-34 fares better -.-). Plus, flanking is negated by their normal-MG42-sized arcs of fire (vCoH MG bunkers had greatly restricted arcs of fire, limiting their use unless spammed even more than they are now) and the fact that Grenadiers cost the exact same as Cons (MG bunker + riflenade = possible squad wipe from afar). Flamers are also next to useless against bunkers, and the demo charges cost (iirc) 90 munitions? Throw in the lack of actually useful Conscript-specific doctrine unlocks (Rapid Deployment, Defensive Operations--ahh the says of SIS strats on Angoville) and the fact that we have to buy DLCs to gain acces to building options that are FUNDAMENTAL to CoH gameplay (sandbags, wire, tank traps, and mines--hell, the Germans don't even get their own free 'cover' to build.) Did they forget how to use a shovel or something?

Gah.

My niche was as an early-mid game US player; my infantry micro is my strongpoint. Unfortunately, CoH2 promotes doctrinal super vehicles/arty spam that's even worse than fighting a Vet3 axis army--and the infantry mechanics are so ridiculous I might as well order my Conscripts to charge the enemy and start clubbing them to death with their rifle butts--it might be more effective.

As someone who doesn't really touch T-70s as I find them useless without late game utility (lack of .50 cal dakka, no minedrop to troll PaKs, PaKs coming in from an off-map location anyway, a P4/Stug coming out shortly afterwords even if I've played well), that's where the 'get PaK, get Shrecks, ???, profit' reply came from.

Oh Greeb

You sound like such a soviet fanboy it's unreal.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198015068579

There's my player card buddy, I believe I qualify for your "Under Rank 200".

Yes, you qualify and I respect your opinion, but I disagree completely.
And it is not soviet fanboyism. I'm not defending T70 here, I'm defending the "kite" mechanic.
I support that one single AT infantry unit should never be able to deal with a tank in open ground face to face. I don't mind if they are soviet or german.
If one Guard unit could be able to kill a PzIV on his own I would rage equally.

Since vCoH I consider infantry with hand-held AT weapons a support for dealing with armored vehicles and not a hard-counter to them.

For that, I don't mind Pgrens or Guards being unable to deal with vehicles by themselves.
They always should need some support like an AT weapon, a previous faust/ATnade or even an allied tank.

The problem here is how easy is to spam T70s, no the unit itself.

EDIT: Probably as they are commenting in previous posts, in vCoH I was mainly an american player, and a russian player in CoH2. So, I'm used to deal with the powerful german tanks combining a lot of crappy units, that's why I see normal not to be able to kill a T70 with just an infantry unit.

Looks like Nullist never touched vCoH.

Your PaK is your primary AT, your shrecks are along for the ride to counter flankers. Trying to crush every vehicle in your path with handheld AT (a formerly very, very squishy, very soft counter) will either:

A) Have you shot all to hell and forced to retreat.

B) Your PG blob hits critical mass and can run through four T-34s and a pair of Maxims and kill some/most of them while losing 1-4 men (micro be damned, this happens to me far too often--in the context of a 4v4 with your headset leaping off of your face with the TS shouting, arty going everywhere, and blobs of PGs and Panthers roaming the map, it's easier than you'd think to lose units).

Just...no, Shrecks shouldn't be a hardcounter to every damned vehicle in the game. Why has Relic made ATGs such useless things that EVERYONE overlooks them? Rarely if ever do I see a PaK. Even rarer, a ZiS-3. Y'all know what the 'Anti-Tank' in Anti-Tank Gun stands for, right?

In vcoh shreks were a counter to every vehicle period.. except that one time they super buffed the crocodile. Some games I only used stormtroopers with upgrades. Shreks were viable if you actually hit instead of shooting rockets at your feet. A inf only army and victory was possible in vcoh. In coh2 a shrek squad cant even deal with a light vehicle. This is why the core coh2 design is way off, or one reason anyway. The basics are watered down and the shock value stuff is over the top. Coh2 is suffering from what bad remakes of great movies suffer from.

Removing tank traps and making mines unaffordable led to players not having tools to counter early wtf kill machines and makes atguns more difficult to use.

You keep calling t70 a tank but in reality its a light recon unit. In the coh2 universe yes,it is a wtfkill machine, which I don't mind.

But what I do mind is heavy at inf not able to deal with a light armored vehicle.

The argument that you need two heavy tank destroying units to deal with one cheap,lightly armored vehicle seems out of whack.

the t70 was really a light tank, that said light tank didn't mean much.