Future Balance Items by Relic
17 Nov 2013, 15:10 PM
#41
Posts: 1439
I wanted to give my counterargument here but there is no point really as balance in this game is a joke right now and I don't really feel like playing this game anymore.
17 Nov 2013, 15:16 PM
#42
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
This is a bit unfair for circle strafing Ostwinds on ZiS though...
Edited to add: I suppose the AoE of the shots helps retain that.
But not for any other tank strafing any other AT gun?
17 Nov 2013, 15:27 PM
#43
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
But not for any other tank strafing any other AT gun?
No, not really.
Closest AI Tank is the KV8, but its too distantly related for real equivalency, due to being a heavy, a callin, and flame dmg not giving a shit about scatter.
As far as offensive use of Ostwind goes, flanking ZiS emplacements is one of its most important and difficult roles.
Due to general lack of indirect fire options, for Ost the only way to decrew a ZiS in advance of an assault is a hard AI flank and penetration.
Why do you ask? You think a T34 or PIV should do as well in decrewing it on a flank and circle strafe?
17 Nov 2013, 16:30 PM
#44
Posts: 101
Building things slower doesn't actually increase the timing of a T-70 hitting the field. It only reduces the amount of time that the combat engineers have to spend in base building, ...With regular build speed T1 takes 20s T2 takes 25s and T3 and T4 takes 72.5s. So if they go T1 and T3 to rush the T-70 out that adds over 1 minute and 30 seconds to the time it takes to get out the T-70.
Not quite. I think CieZ is correct.
If construction of T3 (and T1) is initiated as soon as the needed fuel is available then the time of the first T-70 hitting the field may only be extended a bit.
After the construction of T3 begins the soviet player should have 0 fuel.
So, if the fuel needed for the fist T-70 is amassed faster than the 72.5s needed to build T3 then and only then will the arrival of the first T70 be delayed. ... a bit.
You see - it may need a 'base squatting' engineer squad or a bit of planning/finesse to pull this off, but it's no major speed bump.
17 Nov 2013, 16:35 PM
#45
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
No, not really.
Closest AI Tank is the KV8, but its too distantly related for real equivalency, due to being a heavy, a callin, and flame dmg not giving a shit about scatter.
As far as offensive use of Ostwind goes, flanking ZiS emplacements is one of its most important and difficult roles.
Due to general lack of indirect fire options, for Ost the only way to decrew a ZiS in advance of an assault is a hard AI flank and penetration.
Why do you ask? You think a T34 or PIV should do as well in decrewing it on a flank and circle strafe?
The closest would probably be the T70, seeing as it is non doctrinal and used primarily for flanking AT guns and support infantry on the flanks. In this role the T70 gets hit just as hard by the patch as the Ostwind. Maybe slightly more, or less, due to AOE of the Ostwind and the relatively small scatter of the T70. But this is not why I asked.
I asked because I wondered why you only thought it was unfair for the Ostwind, while all other tanks suffer as much or even more because of the patch. Your answer describing the Ostwinds' role is legit, but I still wonder if it's unfair for the Ostwind. Perhaps the lack of means to quickly take out a Zis-gun prior to a battle is an intentional design decision to compensate for the fact that the soviets have no other form of AT-infantry or a main battle tank that is good at taking out enemy armor. Both of which, as you know, are non doctrinal parts of the German arsenal.
17 Nov 2013, 17:44 PM
#46
Posts: 176
Increase the CP cost of both Tiger Ace & Soviet Industry, would solve some major balance problems very fast.
17 Nov 2013, 18:19 PM
#47
Posts: 1163
A lot of people batting about the idea of increasing the CP cost of Industry (among others), which is something I considered myself.
I do belive there is a large problem with that however, if you cannot activate industry until 1 CP, you will be forced to build more infantry.. infantry that you will not be able to afford to reinforce with the reduced manpower (not at the same time as paying for tanks anyway).
So if you are playing industry, you need it within first 5 mins really, before you have more than ~4 inf units.
Ideal would be half a CP, which would slightly slow T70 rushes, but still let it work as intended.
TBH, im not sure what the big deal with industry is, maybe its in team games where it has a much larger effect? Ive only been playing 1v1s and Ive really found it not that effective now people have got used to countering it. Your locked into it so tight, there is little room to adapt, so your opponent can pretty much spam AT. Ive had much more fun and success playing with the Soviet defense doc.
I do belive there is a large problem with that however, if you cannot activate industry until 1 CP, you will be forced to build more infantry.. infantry that you will not be able to afford to reinforce with the reduced manpower (not at the same time as paying for tanks anyway).
So if you are playing industry, you need it within first 5 mins really, before you have more than ~4 inf units.
Ideal would be half a CP, which would slightly slow T70 rushes, but still let it work as intended.
TBH, im not sure what the big deal with industry is, maybe its in team games where it has a much larger effect? Ive only been playing 1v1s and Ive really found it not that effective now people have got used to countering it. Your locked into it so tight, there is little room to adapt, so your opponent can pretty much spam AT. Ive had much more fun and success playing with the Soviet defense doc.
17 Nov 2013, 19:05 PM
#48
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned@Aerohank: Yes, T70 comparison is valid, within its own timing and window. In many ways, its like a mini Ostwind.
As I later posted, I think Ostwind can still perform this task with the change, thanks to the AoE of the shots. The change will rather effect Ostwinds efficacy in chasing and kiting, which is fine imo. Vehicle chasing/kiting of infantry has been fubar anyways. A ZiS is laregely stationary, even when rotating, so AoE should keep this Ostwind function workable.
As I later posted, I think Ostwind can still perform this task with the change, thanks to the AoE of the shots. The change will rather effect Ostwinds efficacy in chasing and kiting, which is fine imo. Vehicle chasing/kiting of infantry has been fubar anyways. A ZiS is laregely stationary, even when rotating, so AoE should keep this Ostwind function workable.
17 Nov 2013, 20:41 PM
#49
Posts: 176
The problem with Soviet Industry is how ludicrously fast you can pull a T70 out when they were barely balanced in the first place. With the Veterancy changes Vet 2 AC's can no longer compete at all with T70s (Were as before they could to a certain extent).
The problem you have is T70s don't have any hard counters when they come out, can you imagine if they buffed the PE AC to having the same armour values as the T70, and made it one shot kill infantry? You have to rely on a tellar mine to deal with them however you sacrifice your most precious resource as Osteer. Not to mention good soviet players just pull a sweeper out or just build a 2nd T70 thirty seconds later.
I dare say you can now pull a T70 out as fast as an Osteer player gets 120 Munitions. Do you go two tellars or shrecks? Either way no munitions for faust (If you could ever get in range).
The problem you have is T70s don't have any hard counters when they come out, can you imagine if they buffed the PE AC to having the same armour values as the T70, and made it one shot kill infantry? You have to rely on a tellar mine to deal with them however you sacrifice your most precious resource as Osteer. Not to mention good soviet players just pull a sweeper out or just build a 2nd T70 thirty seconds later.
I dare say you can now pull a T70 out as fast as an Osteer player gets 120 Munitions. Do you go two tellars or shrecks? Either way no munitions for faust (If you could ever get in range).
17 Nov 2013, 20:53 PM
#50
Posts: 589
A lot of people batting about the idea of increasing the CP cost of Industry (among others), which is something I considered myself.
I do belive there is a large problem with that however, if you cannot activate industry until 1 CP, you will be forced to build more infantry.. infantry that you will not be able to afford to reinforce with the reduced manpower (not at the same time as paying for tanks anyway).
the manpower nerf wouldn't kick in until 1 CP (or whenever industry is activated)
17 Nov 2013, 20:58 PM
#51
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
The fast T70 with soviet industry is indeed a huge imbalanced problem. Perhaps they could remove the ability altogether and replace it with an ability akin to 'allied war machine' from vCoH.
17 Nov 2013, 22:45 PM
#52
Posts: 1163
Akula, you missed my point.
Playing industry, you only build about 3 inf units, then you need to build fuel units. If you build too many inf units you cripple your income because you don't have enough manpower to keep reinforcing them. Exactly the same way that would happen if you spammed only elite inf in normal circumstances.
But by making industry 1 CP, you would be forced to continue making inf, so you'd end up with 5 or
More inf units, which as soon as you select industry, your not going to be able to reinforce easily.
A fast T 70 is very unsupported in the way that a normal T70 would be. All you really need to keep it at arms length is grens and a fast pak. Multiple grens make Faust easy, if the T70 tries to stay at range, easy pickings for pack.
Playing industry, you only build about 3 inf units, then you need to build fuel units. If you build too many inf units you cripple your income because you don't have enough manpower to keep reinforcing them. Exactly the same way that would happen if you spammed only elite inf in normal circumstances.
But by making industry 1 CP, you would be forced to continue making inf, so you'd end up with 5 or
More inf units, which as soon as you select industry, your not going to be able to reinforce easily.
A fast T 70 is very unsupported in the way that a normal T70 would be. All you really need to keep it at arms length is grens and a fast pak. Multiple grens make Faust easy, if the T70 tries to stay at range, easy pickings for pack.
17 Nov 2013, 22:53 PM
#53
2 Posts: 2181
Akula, you missed my point.
Playing industry, you only build about 3 inf units, then you need to build fuel units. If you build too many inf units you cripple your income because you don't have enough manpower to keep reinforcing them. Exactly the same way that would happen if you spammed only elite inf in normal circumstances.
But by making industry 1 CP, you would be forced to continue making inf, so you'd end up with 5 or
More inf units, which as soon as you select industry, your not going to be able to reinforce easily.
A fast T 70 is very unsupported in the way that a normal T70 would be. All you really need to keep it at arms length is grens and a fast pak. Multiple grens make Faust easy, if the T70 tries to stay at range, easy pickings for pack.
Watch the game hans and nolucky played against omgpop and vonivan. No matther how many t70s they destroy more will just arrive instantly.
18 Nov 2013, 04:50 AM
#54
Posts: 589
I have a great replay which shows sov industry is OP but can't upload it.. is there any other good places to upload a replay?
18 Nov 2013, 05:27 AM
#55
Posts: 3293
any free uploading site works. (assuming they are credible.) idk the only one ive ever used is google drive and that was pretty recently. if you already have a gmail or some other forum of google account not hard to use. just make sure you set the premissons right.
then lets see dropbox is very popular though ive never used it.
then lets see dropbox is very popular though ive never used it.
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18 Nov 2013, 07:37 AM
#56
Posts: 1163
Yeah of course T70 will keep showing up, the T70 is the equivalent on infantry in this doctrine.
I still feel it can be countered ok in 1v1, but I wont comment on team games, because Ive not watched/played any yet.
Im not arguing its totally balanced. Just that I dont think its a win every time button.
I still feel it can be countered ok in 1v1, but I wont comment on team games, because Ive not watched/played any yet.
Im not arguing its totally balanced. Just that I dont think its a win every time button.
18 Nov 2013, 08:52 AM
#57
Posts: 971
If they nerf T70 even more, at least fix the repair ability which needs 60 ammo and it doesn't repair even a faust impact.
18 Nov 2013, 10:54 AM
#58
Posts: 1163
Repair only uses 30 ammo now.
18 Nov 2013, 11:11 AM
#59
15 
Posts: 786
I have a great replay which shows sov industry is OP but can't upload it
I don't really think people need replays for that...
Anyway what I thought was gonna happen is starting to take place. The core game is being changed to balance the new units/commanders (nerfing scatter to indirectly nerf soviet industry) so in the end who will play banning the OP commanders will play a totally unabalanced game. coh2 is doomed.
18 Nov 2013, 11:27 AM
#60
Posts: 747
I don't really think people need replays for that...
Anyway what I thought was gonna happen is starting to take place. The core game is being changed to balance the new units/commanders (nerfing scatter to indirectly nerf soviet industry) so in the end who will play banning the OP commanders will play a totally unabalanced game. coh2 is doomed.
I guess the scatter change is overall a good change not just regarding Soviet Industry.
I hope that the devs are smart enough to know that they shouldn't balance the game around the commanders but the other way around.
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