Future Balance Items by Relic

Yeah of course T70 will keep showing up, the T70 is the equivalent on infantry in this doctrine.

My god, are we actually at the point were we accept T70's as being equivilant to Infantry? This isn't a dig at you buddy but it really shows the balance of the game when we accept T70s as being so disposable. It's just fundementally wrong such a powerful shock unit has no risk associated with it. "Oh look I lost my T70, let's builder another" or "Oh look my T70 has caused game winning damage, better build another to seal the deal" are the only two situations you really have.

I guess the scatter change is overall a good change not just regarding Soviet Industry.

why is it a good change?
nobody ever complained about T70 or Ostwind's effectiveness vs Infantry prior to sov industry.
nerfing scatter during movement means not rewarding good micro which means dumbing down the game.
managing to micro anti AI tanks to avoid fausts/atnades is already enough frustrating

I hope that the devs are smart enough to know that they shouldn't balance the game around the commanders but the other way around.

the "other way round" can't go much far cause they would have to actually deprive people of what they paid for

why is it a good change?
nobody ever complained about T70 or Ostwind's effectiveness vs Infantry prior to sov industry.
nerfing scatter during movement means not rewarding good micro which means dumbing down the game.
managing to micro anti AI tanks to avoid fausts/atnades is already enough frustrating

Hmm you are right, I only had the vehicles vs retreating inf scenario in mind.

the "other way round" can't go much far cause they would have to actually deprive people of what they paid for

I disagree, I think it's definitely possible to balance new commanders without deprieving people of what they paid for.

I mean we all bought CoH2 in knowledge of the game being patched frequently, we agreed to buy a product that changes over time.

In my opinion the same principle applies for DLC Commanders.

Yeah Hissy your right, and of course a T70 is a nastier unit than any inf unit, I just meant that the T70 is what you have instead of more inf.

As far as scatter goes, good, tanks won't be able to chase retreating units so effectively, which is only good. They will still rape in a stand up fight.

They are not changing scatter simply because of industry.. They already tried to nerf it a bit last patch.. They just decided the nerf didn't go quite far enough because of the AOE of tanks.


This is only good, they have an idea and implement it cautiously so not to over nerf stuff.


Would you rather they just nerfed it to the ground 1st time around like has happened to units in the past.

maybe a global price reduction of AT guns to 300 and a tweak to german mines, to lay a standard 25munition mine, 60munition teller mine or the S mines.

Seriously, who is the genius that thought that T70 should stay still to hit infantry?

That unit only purpose is chasing infantry and strafe Paks. It's a light tank! It can't stay static while shooting as a medium or heavy tank because it is destroyed with only 2 shoots!

Nerfing the T70 (a unit that no one complained before) to balance a P2W commander is ridiculous.

I bet it will still decrew paks while circling fine, it does it crazy fast at the moment, every shot kills a crew man.


And it also will reward better micro, i.e. press stop just before it fires, then keep it moving again, like we all had to do with tank battles in coh1.

Surly thats only a good thing?

Maybe tanks as a whole were too good against infantry, maybe not. Either way this scatter change will not help significantly enough against the T-70 and here is why - the T-70 will STILL chase squads off the map, thus resulting in a major loss of map control for whoever has the unfortunate experience of having to fight against a 5 minute T-70.

This principle can be easily seen with Su-85s. If you're trying to cap a point and an Su-85 is in range you can't just ignore it completely because it will eventually start killing your dudes. A 5 minute T-70 is still going to be insanely difficult to deal with, and it'll still be nearly as lethal in the hands of a competent player. I already find it easy enough to micro M3s to stop for sniper shots so that they don't get an accuracy penalty a T-70 won't be too much different.

Also this change does *nothing* to prevent 5 minute Katyushas. I was playing 3v3s last night and went like 15-0 just getting Katys as fast as possible. It was completely busted.

Also this change does *nothing* to prevent 5 minute Katyushas. I was playing 3v3s last night and went like 15-0 just getting Katys as fast as possible. It was completely busted.

That's the point, nerfing scatter is stupid because you are making a perfectly balanced unit like T70 (which is powerful but is A BIG RISK since in an even game you might run into a P4 and be in big trouble) perform much worse while keeping the main problem of soviet industry that could also be used to spam su76s or katyushas or whatever

BIG RISK T70 BIG RISK MATE.

On a serous note, making them miss more when moving would help everything. Good players will stop before shots, bad players will potentially lose there T70s / Not cause game winning damage from a single unit at the five minute mark.

Good players will stop before shots, bad players will potentially lose there T70s / Not cause game winning damage from a single unit at the five minute mark.

Meanwhile, FlameHT and Ostwind can chase fleeing soviets as always, because they don't give a shit about scatter.

Nerfing T70 is a stupid idea to try to balance a stupid commader.

The best way to balance that is just removing that commander and refunding everyone who bought it.

Or just make it 1 cp or a periodic activation that gave you more fuel. You know, add some depth to it while preserving the early game and making rushes less fast.

Meanwhile, FlameHT and Ostwind can chase fleeing soviets as always, because they don't give a shit about scatter.

Nerfing T70 is a stupid idea to try to balance a stupid commader.

The best way to balance that is just removing that commander and refunding everyone who bought it.

Meanwhile in "realistic I play the game land". T70s will still come out faster or at the same rate as Flame HT's. Good luck spending 120 munitions on an anti Infantry weapon.

I will suggest as per earlier.

Increase CP cost to 1. Problem solved.

None of these changes address the inherent problems of the new commanders: T70 timings and Tiger Ace all-inns.

Let's say the building time with soviet industry reduce to lower levels. It doesn't matter. If it it didn't reduce building time, T70s would still come out the same time (give or take 20 seconds). Why? Because all that really matter is the fuel income. So instead of your engineers running around capping and then building, they will simply sit in the base and build from the get-go so by the time you have enough fuel for the t70, you have finished t3. It, quite definitively, has no counters. The t70 can do almost no damage as CieZ pointed out, even if he killed off infantry at the same rate as an Su-85 (slowly), it will still force you off nonetheless, which means no map control, which means no fuel for you, which means you have no counters to tanks (pak 43's are a sub-par counter and will never touch a t70 and will be easily overrun by the horde of tanks soon to come. All this considering you managed to get t2 with manpower this far...).

the Tiger Ace, while less of a problem in my opinion, still poses a design flaw. The entire gameplay centers around armies slowly building up and trying to cause enough damage over time to eventually build an advantage (or if the game is close, to bitterly fight for a long time over the Victory Points). The tiger ace defies this: even if you have even armies it will completely shift the tide of battle. If you somehow make it to 7, or 8, CPs, cahnces are the game is a pretty close one (or you at least have some form of an army defending the line). With a Tiger Ace, all you really need is some marginal support for it to start being useful.
It's basically an All-in unit, you will either win or lose with it (whereas other strategies require you to build up units with resources to execute such aggressive all-in pushes). I think adding some extra abilities and make it have comparable health and damage to the Tiger, and make it cost resources (no zero income mechanic), will fix it. Add abilities like crew shock or extra range or something. Don't just make it a super tiger. This way it can still provide a vital role to your army without breaking the game's flow.

Wait wait wtf... I just realized the replay system is down!!!! Wtf so I got more crashes after this patch, still no fix to cancel mines or performance, a weird vehicle bug in semois, and lots of angry players.

Seriously I have tried to be optimistic and shut my mouth where I could but this is unacceptable. I would love for the performance issues, input/lag to be addressed ASAP along with the things broken by PATCHES (semois bug and cancel mines and replays) And did anyone else get tricked into thinking rails and metal was going to be a 1v1 map?? Argghhhggg!!!!!!!!

Relic on my friends!! Let's fix issues players have been reporting for month first!!!

Double post soz soz

Another thing on the note of the Tiger Ace is that it has the potential to give you wins that you simply don't deserve. If you're severely losing a game and make it to 7 CP you have nothing to risk by calling in the tank. If you lose... oh well, you were going to lose anyways so it doesn't matter. If you win, well... you certainly don't really deserve it. And as Vindicare and others pointed out, in an even 1v1 it has such an unfair potential to "break the line" so to speak.

Also the change to each faction starting with 490 manpower is... well goofy. As I may have mentioned in this thread, or another on this site, Germans need to start with 40 more raw manpower than Soviets because Combat Engineers are worth 240 MP instead of 200 MP (pios). They're the stronger combat unit, and as long as Germans start with 40 more raw MP, then the "real" starting MP is equal. Granted 40 manpower probably won't decide the outcome of a match, the fact that starting resources are not equivalent breaks one of the core foundations of any RTS.

Meanwhile in "realistic I play the game land". T70s will still come out faster or at the same rate as Flame HT's. Good luck spending 120 munitions on an anti Infantry weapon.

I will suggest as per earlier.

Increase CP cost to 1. Problem solved.

Dude, there is no way t70s appear before FlameHT without the Soviet Industry Commander.

So,the issue here is the commander, not the unit.
There is no valid reason to nerf T70.

I'm not playing with P2W commanders so I don't care if they increase the CP cost to 1, 2 or 230.

Another thing on the note of the Tiger Ace is that it has the potential to give you wins that you simply don't deserve. If you're severely losing a game and make it to 7 CP you have nothing to risk by calling in the tank. If you lose... oh well, you were going to lose anyways so it doesn't matter. If you win, well... you certainly don't really deserve it. And as Vindicare and others pointed out, in an even 1v1 it has such an unfair potential to "break the line" so to speak.

In 1vs1 is too easy to break the line and rape the enemy base.

In 2vs2 or more is too easy to support your teammate's Tiger Ace and make it invulnerable.

That unit is fubar.

The soviet tanks, as it stands, are total infantry killers. This change will help preserve infantry (support units) and will stop the shock factor that t70's t34's have. The soviets will not be able to call in one unit and gain map dominance.

Strategy will be needed for once.

The FHT has been nerfed as well, we just need some fixes on top of this to stop the script/gren spam and we might have a decent game appearing.

The Tiger Ace should maybe have a requirement like T4 building must be produced therefore making it harder to be deployed.

I'm fine with T70's doing the damage they can, there cost should reflect this however.