Future Balance Items by Relic

Missed a few pages,so you want to nerf the M3?? =))
T70 maybe I understand,but the M3,wtf ))

Then read the pages you missed before you open your mouth and start trolling.

No one has said to nerf M3.

http://www.coh2.org/replays/11275/soviet-m3-vs.-221222/page/1#post_id99776

It shows that M3+Guards is almost exactly equal to 222.
M3+Guards vs 221 is not even a competition. The 221 has no chance.
It also shows that on live, the Guard have no problem shooting a second time.




My evidence is above.

It shows that empty M3 can beat a 251 (hands down) AND a 221 (very close).

M3+Guard vs 222 is very close. Depends strongly on Shrek hits.

So, TLDR:
Empty M3 beats 251 absolutely and can beat 221.
Garrissoned M3 beats 251 completely and securely beats 221.
Guard M3 rips 251s and 221 apart.
222 rips empty M3 apart.
222 is roughly equal against Guard M3.

To boil it down even further,
Empty M3 vs 221 is about the same as Guard M3 vs 222.
Both are very close.

IMO, this argument is slightly overstretched.
1. No one fights 251's with empty M3s, those units' roles is not to fight each other.
2. You shouldn't be comparing garrisoned M3 efficiency because you are comparing 2 combined units againts one.
3. Guard M3 aren't reliable at all against 222s, as Marcus said. And I think Marcus of all people would know

IMO, this argument is slightly overstretched.

Dunno what you are talking about.
I didnt make any argument in that post.

Those are the findings of the tests Akula and I did.
You can see them for yourself in the linked replay.

OK, maybe I wasn't clear enough. IMO those tests are a bit "too vacum" - I can't explain it better.
Those units should not neccesarily be compared like that, and from MINE (limited, I confess) and apparently Marcus' experience Guard M3s are not actually reliable against 222s.

All I am saying. But this is all of topic, I think

Those units should not neccesarily be compared like that, and from MINE (limited, I confess) and apparently Marcus' experience Guard M3s are not actually reliable against 222s.

dude: Dismount Guards and screen DA M3!!!

dude: Dismount Guards and screen DA M3!!!

When I see 222, I GTFO with M3s on sight, and immediately dismount whatever is in it.
I think that 222s counter M3s just fine, whathever's inside.

The SNF mathches that sparkled this discussion are not very good examples of whether something is wrong with the 221/222.

VonIvan's choice not to build them was actually strange, but as someone mentioned it might have been part of focusing on VPs strat. OMGPOP! didn't have to fight the M3s so there was no need for 222s. If VonIvan had build the 222s and then FAILED to counter M3s, then we could talk, I think.

Negativg, I think you should really just watch the replay.

Empty M3 is equal with 221.
Garrisonned M3 beats 221 completely.
Empty M3 beats 251.
Garrisonned M3 beats 251 completely.
M3+Guard is equal to 222.

Ok, ok. I get it.
But what's the problem with it (in gameplay scenarios)in your opinion, and what should be done about it?

Who the hell cares about fights in a vacuum about units who practically never fight each other to begin with? Demand a buff to the 221/222's health and leave it at that Nullist.

Oh, and you can actually micro the scout car too. Leave it at the sides of the M3 and it cannot damage it. If it has Guards inside, it's still a toss-up despite M3 + guards costing far more than a 222, and being doctrinal to boot. I'm really not sure why you're complaining about this.

Who the hell cares about fights in a vacuum about units who practically never fight each other to begin with? Demand a buff to the 221/222's health and leave it at that Nullist.

Oh, and you can actually micro the scout car too. Leave it at the sides of the M3 and it cannot damage it. If it has Guards inside, it's still a toss-up despite M3 + guards costing far more than a 222, and being doctrinal to boot. I'm really not sure why you're complaining about this.

+1

But what's the problem with it (in gameplay scenarios)in your opinion, and what should be done about it?

After all the testing and evaluation in DA labZ, it is time to make the Hard Calls

I'm really not sure why you're complaining about this.

Probably because I havent complained.
L2read with your eyes and not your imagination, thanks.
Nice try to troll though.
And Tuvok, you can stop your lame troll attempts too, Im not going to bite and you just make yourself look like a clown.

All I did, is stated how it is and showed replay to evidence it.

Empty M3 is equal with 221.
Garrisonned M3 beats 221 completely.
Empty M3 beats 251.
Garrisonned M3 beats 251 completely.
M3+Guard is equal to 222.

Sorry if that confuses or upsets you for some reason, but thats not really my problem.

Yes, of course, anyone who dares disagree with the Great Nullist is obviously trolling and needs to l2read like the nubs they are. Get over yourself, and in the meantime I'll leave you to your flailing around.

Yes, of course, anyone who dares disagree with the Great Nullist is obviously trolling and needs to l2read like the nubs they are.

What EXACTLY are you even claiming to disagree with, lol?

You disagree with the replays results? Is that it?

Lol Courier, I don't like Nullist as much as the next guy (and frankly think he's full of shit 90% of the time since he spends all day talking about a game he doesn't even play) but at least he has the balls to back his statements up with hard evidence.

Go away, men are talking here.

Back on topic - I actually didn't get a chance to watch the replay yesterday but I trust the results that you posted in the replay comments. Seems weird that the Front of the M3 beats the front of the 221, but the front of the M3 loses to the back of the 221 - maybe the matchup really mostly boils down to RNG?

As for the M3 vs the 251 - looking over the math I'm starting to think that the one time I tested it and had the 251 win, it was a fluke. The 251 does have double the HP of the M3, but it has basically zero DPS (I mean it has SOME but it is a tiny amount).

222 vs M3 + Guards is not a match up I'd bet on the 222. Guards just out-range the 222, are more accurate, and they can jump out of the M3 if necessary. Sure the 222 can win if it flies in at point blank range, but trying to counter guards in an M3 with a 222 has always felt risky to me.

Overall it seems like we were both right and wrong on certain things. I was wrong the 251 beating an M3, I think over the course of a bunch of tests a 221 will still beat an M3 front to front - or at the very least it is a close match up. And I'd side with Nullist on Guads + M3 versus a 222. Guards in M3 is actually a huge annoyance of mine - they really lack a solid counter until tanks hit the field.

Lol Courier, I don't like Nullist as much as the next guy (and frankly think he's full of shit 90% of the time since he spends all day talking about a game he doesn't even play) but at least he has the balls to back his statements up with hard evidence.

Sorry but I stopped reading right there.

I dont need or appreciate the insults and though I spend a lot of time posting here, I do infact have better things to do than read insults.

Remove the insults from above and I'll read the rest. If we are indeed men talking here, as you said, there is no need for those.

And I do play. I dont understand why you repeat that. Its false.

Then read the pages you missed before you open your mouth and start trolling.

No one has said to nerf M3.

So you're saying you don't want to nerf the M3 but you do actualy say that the M3 beats that shit or beats that shit in a balance thread where people usualy complain that something is OP and should be nerfed...if not for that,is it for information sake??

if not for that,is it for information sake??

Yes! Ofc it was! I find it pretty incredible that only now do you realise that, as a last option.

There where some claims made that wherent accurate about the relative performance of these units.
The replay was made and the units specifically tested, in order to inform discussion accurately on those.

Sooooo... this thread went waaay off topic.

Yes! Ofc it was! I find it pretty incredible that only now do you realise that, as a last option.

There where some claims made that wherent accurate about the relative performance of these units.
The replay was made and the units specifically tested, in order to inform discussion accurately on those.

Well great job for that then...