Future Balance Items by Relic

"The rear mg of the 22 beats the m3"

False. The M3 beats a 221. The Forward MG is close. The Rear MG outright beats it.
Which in and of itself already evidences the ridiculous relation between these two units. Why the hell does M3 have TWO MG Arcs AND a Garrison?
The 50cal is absolutely brutal! TEST IT. Go ahead. I dare you.


Even more false. The M3 barely beats 221 without garrison. But it utterly obliterates the 251.
The 251s MG is literally a peashooter. It cant even kill CE, let alone an armored M3.

The 250 doesnt even HAVE a weapon lol.



How does it have nothing to do with the M3, when Ost fields a 222 to counter it, yet gets owned by Guards either in it, or next to it?



Where is the empirical evidence? All I see is anecdotal evicence that is, unfortunately, false. Go test em. See for yourself. You clearly haven't though you claim you have.

German 221 (un-upgunned scout car):
DPS Including Reload/Accuracy:
Near - 19.641 / 0.6
Mid - 13.067
Far - 6.492 / 0.25
Range - 35

Armor:
Front - 11
Rear - 5.5

HP: 160

Soviet M3A1:
DPS Including Reload/Accuracy:
Front 0.50Cal MG:
Near - 18.291 / 0.5
Mid - 11.160
Far - 4.029 / 0.2
Range - 35

Back 0.30Cal MG:
Near - 18.770 / 0.5
Mid - 12.860
Far - 6.951 / 0.37
Range - 35

Armor:
Front - 8.4
Rear - 4.2

HP: 160

The German 221 has more armor and more DPS (including and excluding reload) than the M3A1, while having the same HP. The only scenario that I can see the M3 winning is if it is shooting the rear armor of the 221, while the 221 is stuck shooting the front of the M3. Furthermore, the M3A1 has a small arc of fire on both the frontal/rear mounted MGs, and cannot shoot to the sides - the 222 does not have this problem and can easily out micro a lone M3A1. Still beats it 1v1 if they're just standing still shooting each other though.

The 251 has double the hp of an M3 and at close range will beat an empty M3 1vs1 (I can't ever see this scenario actually happening, but you mentioned it). I have personally tested this out of curiosity. I never mentioned anything about the 250... but yes it will lose to an M3... it has no weapon.

I was mentioning that Guards cannot be part of the equation since I was only speaking to your statement that the M3A1 0.50Cal MG alone beats a 221. I agreed that Guards inside, or outside of the M3 destroy a 221/222/251 (as they should, it is their role).

Where is your evidence?

222 will kill an M3 with guards most of the times
just sayin'

I have personally tested 251 versus empty M3 and the 251 wins.

And this one?

I sent you a friend request on Steam just now.
Get online and test all of these with me right now.
Skype: Nullist.Nullist

shit got serious

And this one?

I sent you a friend request on Steam just now.
Get online and test all of these with me right now.
Skype: Nullist.Nullist

I'm at work right now. Can easily test with anyone though. M3A1 shooting the rear of a 251 might beat it, but face to face the 251 won the time I tested it. Granted, I didn't test it 100+ times so RNG could have been a factor in this single scenario. But 221 beats empty M3A1, no way around that.

Nullist made you an offer, I could never refuse .

Can easily test with anyone though.

Let me know when you are available please, either through Skype in voice, PM on Coh2.org, or on my Steam profile. Thanks.

I hope they don't revert the manpower change because of the doors it opens. If it truly favors soviets at the moment though, maybe scout cars should be bumped up to 100 mp, and molotov upgrade to 200 or 250 mp.

That would keep builds flexible but still force the soviet player to make some trade-offs.

I'd also like conscripts as well as grens to cost 250 or 260 manpower, just to reduce the reliance on 5 con, or 5 gren builds.

People use 222's effectively against me all the time. That could just be that i'm not an amazing player, but as an m3 deterrent they make sense. They also empty buildings pretty damn fast. Russia can't camp with a 222 blasting at him unless the unit in question is a guard. In that case, at least scout car has effectively managed to draw out guards, making all future pgrens more effective. Scout car will be handy to help counter the inevitable soviet sniper response to that as well. In the mean-time it can stay back and defend infantry from the flamer m3.

Well, the fact that Guards into M3 beat an Armored Car in a straight fight is false, at least in live (where 20mm cannon does 25 damage unlike how it is in the beta). The 20mm cannon + the normal MG would kill the M3 before Guards are able to shoot the second time. The only chance to destroy the AC is if your opponent microes badly (like retreating the AC and then getting chased, since PTRS have longer range than the AC).

Dat NDA violation

Fixed.

Marcus: Dismount Guard and screen the M3. 222 dead.

Also, they outrange the 222 as you said.

There is a real reason why neither player in this weeks SNF fielded them.
Infact I havent seen a single 222 in any SNF match this season. Have you?

VindicareX made five against HolyHammer... didn't really work out though =X

(Not trying to smack talk Vindicare, he's a legitimately good player)

SCREEN DA M3!!

Well, the fact that Guards into M3 beat an Armored Car in a straight fight is false, at least in live

http://www.coh2.org/replays/11275/soviet-m3-vs.-221222/page/1#post_id99776

It shows that M3+Guards is almost exactly equal to 222.
M3+Guards vs 221 is not even a competition. The 221 has no chance.
It also shows that on live, the Guard have no problem shooting a second time.

The 251 has double the hp of an M3 and at close range will beat an empty M3 1vs1 ... I have personally tested this out of curiosity.

Where is your evidence?

But 221 beats empty M3A1, no way around that.

My evidence is above.

It shows that empty M3 can beat a 251 (hands down) AND a 221 (very close).

M3+Guard vs 222 is very close. Depends strongly on Shrek hits.

So, TLDR:
Empty M3 beats 251 absolutely and can beat 221.
Garrissoned M3 beats 251 completely and securely beats 221.
Guard M3 rips 251s and 221 apart.
222 rips empty M3 apart.
222 is roughly equal against Guard M3.

To boil it down even further,
Empty M3 vs 221 is about the same as Guard M3 vs 222.
Both are very close.

nice real world scenarios lol

nice real world scenarios lol

You have better?

No?

I didn't think so.

Show a little respect when two people take their own time to test something.

http://www.coh2.org/replays/11275/soviet-m3-vs.-221222/page/1#post_id99776

It shows that M3+Guards is almost exactly equal to 222.
M3+Guards vs 221 is not even a competition. The 221 has no chance.
It also shows that on live, the Guard have no problem shooting a second time.




My evidence is above.

It shows that empty M3 can beat a 251 (hands down) AND a 221 (very close).

M3+Guard vs 222 is very close. Depends strongly on Shrek hits.

So, TLDR:
Empty M3 beats 251 absolutely and can beat 221.
Garrissoned M3 beats 251 completely and securely beats 221.
Guard M3 rips 251s and 221 apart.
222 rips empty M3 apart.
222 is roughly equal against Guard M3.

To boil it down even further,
Empty M3 vs 221 is about the same as Guard M3 vs 222.
Both are very close.

I'll look at the replay when I get home.

Missed a few pages,so you want to nerf the M3?? =))
T70 maybe I understand,but the M3,wtf ))