OST clubbing UKF like a baby seal

the real winning factor is cost... even without the riflenade id say 4 man IS are slightly worse than grens... but with the riflenade i think id put my money on grens...

2. yeah but removing engine governor breaks the engine after its use...

Well if you are having to tech to BP 1(required for riflenade) AND expend 30 munitions in order to win, I'm not sure I'd say grens are ahead in cost. At that point, a better comparison would be against 5 man IS, not 4.



Warspeed does not have this effect. The only downside is that for you to use it again, you need to reset it with engineers. Until then, your comet has its usual performance.

I did some testing. First, it does have collision properties with terrain like hedges and lower elevations as well as vehicles, though it seems to just phase through others such as haystacks.

...

PTRS does the same but has not projectile.

Second, the Weapon DOES have AOE, AND it has attack ground, which leaves me to believe it is in fact a projectile.

It has AOE but very small of 0.5.

It uses accuracy 0.675/0.618/0.56 while Ostwind uses AOE (0.05/0.0375/0.025)

The strafe on the other hand uses AOE and not accuracy so it can use both types of attack.

(maybe I can test later to see if it has a projectile)
Ok as far as I can tell it does have projectiles but as I pointed in my original post comparing an accuracy bases weapon with an AOE based weapon is rather misleading. Each has it pros and cons.

PTRS does the same but has not projectile.


It has AOE but very small of 0.5.

It uses accuracy 0.675/0.618/0.56 while Ostwind uses AOE (0.05/0.0375/0.025)

The strafe on the other hand uses AOE and not accuracy so it can use both types of attack.

(maybe I can test later to see if it has a projectile)
Ok as far as I can tell it does have projectiles but as I pointed in my original post comparing an accuracy bases weapon with an AOE based weapon is rather misleading. Each has it pros and cons.

Well the comparison was not originally done by me.

That said I think you absolutely can compare two units with different weapon properties in terms of how effective they are at engaging their targets. The fact their weapons have different properties isn't relevant when we are simply asking how effective the units are. If we want to know WHY the units are effective, then sure, those properties are good to know.

Well the comparison was not originally done by me.

That said I think you absolutely can compare two units with different weapon properties in terms of how effective they are at engaging their targets. The fact their weapons have different properties isn't relevant when we are simply asking how effective the units are. If we want to know WHY the units are effective, then sure, those properties are good to know.

Ok let me rephrase. The fact that centaur shot may or my not collide with terrain is irrelevant to performance.

A) because it fire more shot and thus more shot will hit the ground
B) because shot that collide with terrain have already missed and would not score collision hits with entities anyway. And there AOE is too small for AOE damage.

In the end of day Centaur has the addition option of using its strafe that has more AOE radius than OStheer one...

Ok let me rephrase. The fact that centaur shot may or my not collide with terrain is irrelevant to performance.

A) because it fire more shot and thus more shot will hit the ground
B) because shot that collide with terrain have already missed and would not score collision hits with entities anyway. And there AOE is too small for AOE damage.

In the end of day Centaur has the addition option of using its strafe that has more AOE radius than OStheer one...

Fair enough. The point though was in context of the centaurs overall effectiveness. I deliberately left out the strafe because its a vet ability and matches up against the ostwinds blitz. THAT would actually be comparing apples oranges and I think both abilities are decent at what they do.

Fair enough. The point though was in context of the centaurs overall effectiveness. I deliberately left out the strafe because its a vet ability and matches up against the ostwinds blitz. THAT would actually be comparing apples oranges and I think both abilities are decent at what they do.

Yes the abilities are different. My only point is that Centaur can fire both accuracy based and AOE based.

Currently and after the changes to Cromwell I prefer Ostwind to Centaur and I would rather see both units have the power level reduced (and price adjusted) and increasing the AT capability of ostwind vs lights (mostly increasing accuracy probably, maybe close penetration). It could then serve as "light tank" for ostheer.

wrong wrong and wrong again

1. 4 man grens even with 4 man IS... 4 man grens have 7% larger target size and have 8% less DPS but grens 12% cheaper and more importantly dont have their DPS halved while outside cover... this means IS have to stay in cover when fighting against grenaders which leaves them vulnerable to riflenades...

4 man grens > 4 man IS
2. 5 man grens are superior to IS despite their lower target size... same arguments from the 4 man case but this is because grenadiers get a G43 rifle which not only has significanly higher DPS than a normal grenadier KAR98 but also has the chance to proxy crit models... granted the upgrade is technically more expensive since it is done per squad and costs more than insignificant amount of munitions but grens still take the cake...

5 man grens > 5 man IS
3. the panther outclasses the comet in terms of anti armor... the panther has more HP penetration accuracy and ROF in exchange for slightly more armor more AOE and a bit of speed...

the comet normally outclasses the base panther in terms of anti infantry but the panther can equip the pintle MG42 which increases its anti infantry DPS dramatically pushing its DPS to around that of a comet
TLDR; panther outclasses comet in terms of anti armor and is even with the comet...

panther > comet

4. the stats for the cromwell are bugged and cannot be opened in https://coh2.serealia.ca/ but i am sure the panzer 4 can 1v1 the cromwell quite comfortably while still packing anti infantry power

panzer 4 > cromwell

5. if you think ost teching is horrible wait till you see SOV and OKW... OST actually has one of the cheapest tech costs in the game especially after its numerous buffs... you will find OST T3 to be quite a bit cheaper than SOV or OKW T3 by quite a margin

Wow. This rank 5000 analysis is beyond crazy. Fits the theme of a CODGUY thread I suppose.

1) The whole reason Ost sniper opener vs Brits is meta is cos Grens are so hopelessly outclassed by IS in terms of DPS, target size, and cost-efficiency. It's hilarious how ultra-bad players always talk about "needing to use cover" as if it's some horrible game-losing weakness. Erm no, you're SUPPOSED to use cover in the majority of situations.

2) 5 man Grens are OP cos you don't need to pay bolster to have 5 man, and you get a crazy RA buff + 1 G43 + free medkit. Most good players agree that 5 man Grens are OP, but that's a doctrine issue and not a faction issue.

3) Panther dps is "around that of a Comet" only if you intentionally attack ground somewhere else with your main cannon and refuse to use any abilities. Comet's main cannon + WP + nade vs Panther's pintle upgrade....yeah sure, "equal".

Wow. This rank 5000 analysis is beyond crazy. Fits the theme of a CODGUY thread I suppose.

if youre gonna be a fucking dick about it then at least do it right

1) The whole reason Ost sniper opener vs Brits is meta is cos Grens are so hopelessly outclassed by IS in terms of DPS, target size, and cost-efficiency. It's hilarious how ultra-bad players always talk about "needing to use cover" as if it's some horrible game-losing weakness. Erm no, you're SUPPOSED to use cover in the majority of situations.

cite some actual statistics will you? i actually cited the numbers as to how 4 man grens and 4 man IS compare to each other... and its not nearly as bad as your "feelings" think... also the need to use cover is usually negated in close quarters which means IS cannot maneuver and maintain DPS in cqc while longer ranges leaves them vulnerable to the half bugged riflenade... also did u know that grenadiers have more CQC DPS? grens have 11% higher DPS at range 5

3) Panther dps is "around that of a Comet" only if you intentionally attack ground somewhere else with your main cannon and refuse to use any abilities. Comet's main cannon + WP + nade vs Panther's pintle upgrade....yeah sure, "equal".

the comet has 2.5 aoe with its main gun while the panther has 0.5... this means the comet has the same AOE and ROF as a medium such as the T-34-85 which can kill a model in around 1 or 2 shots at range 20-30 depending on the formation of the infantry... this gives it a theoretical "DPS" of 6.5...

the panther has a total machinegun DPS of 16.517 and around 11.65 for the comet at range 30... as you can see the total DPS of the pintle+coax is comparable to the main cannon...

this doesnt take into account abilities sure but as for nades yes nades are great but using them in a comet means going close enough to get fausted... this means nades for the comet is better used vs team weapons... and WP is good but it also blocks LOS and prevents further shot making it more of a utility tool than a DPS one... granted WP is really good

this thread

the comet has 2.5 aoe with its main gun while the panther has 0.5... this means the comet has the same AOE and ROF as a medium such as the T-34-85 which can kill a model in around 1 or 2 shots at range 20-30 depending on the formation of the infantry... this gives it a theoretical "DPS" of 6.5...

the panther has a total machinegun DPS of 16.517 and around 11.65 for the comet at range 30... as you can see the total DPS of the pintle+coax is comparable to the main cannon...

Sorry, but this calculation is hilariously bad.
Comet has WAY better AoE than any T34. Better scatter too. Plus you completely neglect that AoE damage actually does what the name says: cause and area of effect. So just breaking it down to damage to one single model is straight up wrong.

Sorry, but this calculation is hilariously bad.
Comet has WAY better AoE than any T34. Better scatter too.

the T-34-85 has 2.5 aoe with a oneshot radius of 1.11 the comet has 2.5 aoe with a oneshot radius of 0.96...

Plus you completely neglect that AoE damage actually does what the name says: cause and area of effect. So just breaking it down to damage to one single model is straight up wrong.

correct breaking it down to single model damage isnt entirely accurate... due the amount of variables involved it would require measured MTTK ingame as this cannot be adequated simulated through mathematics alone... but a very rough model can be approximated at the very least...

the T-34-85 has 2.5 aoe with a oneshot radius of 1.11 the comet has 2.5 aoe with a oneshot radius of 0.96...

Yes, and the T34/85 falls off steeply after the OHK radius to finally 8 damage while the Comet retains 32 at the very outer border. Plus the scatter means that the T34 will miss more shots.

correct breaking it down to single model damage isnt entirely accurate... due the amount of variables involved it would require measured MTTK ingame as this cannot be adequated simulated through mathematics alone... but a very rough model can be approximated at the very least...

MMX has done some theoretical simulations on that but unfortunately the compendium he published does not work with real ingame formations (which is understandable due to the work load) plus it neglects the MG damage (which heavily prolongs the TTK since the MGs can finish off low HP models easily). But judging from that the Comet is about 25% better.

Taking a single model is quite misleading to draw conclusions from. For wipes as a final shot on retreating squads (that often only have 1-2 models left), maybe, but overall it does not help much. With that calculation I could prove to you that a Brummbaer performs worse than the T34.

Plus the scatter means that the T34 will miss more shots.

valid point

Yes, and the T34/85 falls off steeply after the OHK radius to finally 8 damage while the Comet retains 32 at the very outer border.

this one is valid too but remember its 1.11 for an OHK radius... this translates to 15% greater OHK radius which gives us a falloff (intercept) radius of 1.33663 to the damage of the comet... while it would still hardly translate to a valid MTTK value its still noteworthy to say that the T-34-85 has comparable AOE... ill admit it has better scatter though...

MMX has done some theoretical simulations on that but unfortunately the compendium he published does not work with real ingame formations (which is understandable due to the work load) plus it neglects the MG damage (which heavily prolongs the TTK since the MGs can finish off low HP models easily). But judging from that the Comet is about 25% better.

do you have a link? id honestly like to see it...

Taking a single model is quite misleading to draw conclusions from. For wipes as a final shot on retreating squads (that often only have 1-2 models left), maybe, but overall it does not help much. With that calculation I could prove to you that a Brummbaer performs worse than the T34.

not really... i assumed aoe would on average splash/damage a model equivalent to 80 damage in around 1 to 2 shots depending on the formation... since by observation it usually takes 1-2 shots to kill 0-1 models at least for the T-34-85 vs something like a grenadier at range 30...

the brummbar has much larger aoe/splash to the point where it does can easily exceed 80 per shot... it usually doesnt kill a model in its first shot but 2 shots can easily wipe off 4-5 models off a conscript... thats an average of 180 damage split off 4 models...

this one is valid too but remember its 1.11 for an OHK radius... this translates to 15% greater OHK radius which gives us a falloff (intercept) radius of 1.33663 to the damage of the comet... while it would still hardly translate to a valid MTTK value its still noteworthy to say that the T-34-85 has comparable AOE... ill admit it has better scatter though...

From what I can tell based on theoretical calculations the OHK capability is slightly better on the T34/85 against whole squads. Again, looking at only the OHK radius is valid if you talk about 1 shot at a full health squad. It can be a very rough indicator, especially for alpha damage, but does not say too much about overall AI capability.

do you have a link? id honestly like to see it...

sure
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105528/the-grand-tank-aoe-damage-compendium

not really... i assumed aoe would on average splash/damage a model equivalent to 80 damage in around 1 to 2 shots depending on the formation... since by observation it usually takes 1-2 shots to kill 0-1 models at least for the T-34-85 vs something like a grenadier at range 30...

the brummbar has much larger aoe/splash to the point where it does can easily exceed 80 per shot... it usually doesnt kill a model in its first shot but 2 shots can easily wipe off 4-5 models off a conscript... thats an average of 180 damage split off 4 models...

You were mentioning the AI capabilities of T34 (initially actually Panther) and Comet in general.
Your assumptions are just very far fetched. 1-2 shots is already a very rough estimation, the single model is the second assumption that is not representative. And full health infantry is another assumption that is fair to make for a first calculation, but falls flat if you then neglect that the remaining models only have half health on the Comet while being fine on the T34 (slight exaggeration) after those 2 shots have been taken.

And that is the whole point of my Brummbaer example. Your initial argument was based on OHK and the estimate that 1-2 shots should be enough to kill a single model squad. Brummbär has the same OHK radius at the T34/85. As you said the first shot is not more deadly on a healthy squad that anything else, but the second and third shots are the ones that hit hard because the Brummbaer has a flat AoE curve that retains a lot of damage on the edges. Same thing with the Comet, although not as pronounced.

Fact is, even against full health squads, the T34 is worse than the Comet in everything but the chance to kill a model on the first shot. But it does not put out more damage than the Comet. I can even back this up with data:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105637/preview-towards-quantifying-aoe-alpha-damage

Against damaged squads (by MGs and other small arms), it should do even better since lower HP models are more often killed.

Conclusion is: The Comet's gun is way more effective than the pintle of the Panther.
Please just go to cheat mode and park the two tanks at 90 degree angles to a Volks squad and check how they are doing. Best case, disable the coaxial MGs via a mod, but in fact the coaxial MG should scew the test in favor of the Panther.

I always look at Cruzz's AoE score on his dps sheet as a quick and dirty way to check how good an AoE weapon is against infantry.

I take it at face value, because it's usually in-line with my own experience, altough I have no idea what the exact calculation behind it is. I only know it takes all AoE damage values and scatter values into account, but not accuracy and reload time.

For Comet:
Show Spoiler

For Cromwell:
Show Spoiler

For Panther (note that accuracy hits aren't included with this score):
Show Spoiler

I always look at Cruzz's AoE score on his dps sheet as a quick and dirty way to check how good an AoE weapon is against infantry.

I take it at face value, because it's usually in-line with my own experience, altough I have no idea what the exact calculation behind it is. I only know it takes all AoE damage values and scatter values into account, but not accuracy and reload time.

For Comet:
Show Spoiler

For Cromwell:
Show Spoiler

For Panther (note that accuracy hits aren't included with this score):
Show Spoiler

Would be nice to know what he is calculating there, but it is very dangerous to take some value for granted without having any explanation behind it. Especially since AoE is such a complicated issue to solve.

However the score does not help much for this special discussion, since we don't know what units it is in if it has units at all. The initial question was how the Comet's gun compares to the Panther's MGs, and this value does not help at all with that.

..

Did not check but if I remember correctly Comet got a buff to AI so that chart is probably out of date

Did not check but if I remember correctly Comet got a buff to AI so that chart is probably out of date

One of its MGs got buffed.

Comet's AOE was changed too, but it seems like the stat was updated on Serealia's site (from 6.7 on coh2db to 11.3 on Serealia).

I too trust that Cruzz figured out at least a decently accurate calculation behind these scores. They are generally in line with my own experience and they seem consistent between most weapons.

The T-34/85's is 7.7 so significantly lower in total despite having a slightly higher OHK radius.

And obviously the Comet has significantly better AI than the Panther, which was the original comparison I think.

the panther has a total machinegun DPS of 16.517 and around 11.65 for the comet at range 30... as you can see the total DPS of the pintle+coax is comparable to the main cannon...

Comparing MG DPS to AOE is rather pointless, because the MG DPS is heavily affected by cover (-50% accuracy) and target size. AOE effectively ignores these (ignoring the 2-6% chance for a direct accuracy hit) but instead is heavily affected by RNG scatter rolls. Both weapons have their own ups and downs in regards to DPS/DPM, but the mechanics behind them lie so far apart that you can't really compare them.

Directly comparing the Panther and Comet is a bit like comparing an AT gun and a mortar (inb4 ZiS). They simply aren't intended for the same job.

For a fair comparison you would absolutely need to place them in the context of a full army build (As with almost any unit, but for dissimilar units moreso)rather than worrying about their individual performance.

That said, I think it can be, and indeed seems to be, agreed that the Comet is superior in AI performance (And utility), and the Panther is in AT performance.