Conscript PPSH assault package

True but ppshs have been buffed since then. And they were a no brainier after that buff cause they still had that 40 muni price tag for a few patches before being increased

Not really. Only against OH. Playing Cons, even with PPSH, was a generally bad choice against OKW at the time.
OH was basically playing mostly Mobile Def Puma and they didn't have any of the benefits they currently have nowadays. Either the doctrinal options or the non doctrinal improvements to the core roster.

The price tag meant that you could fully arm your whole Cons with them, pushing for a better mid game in tandem with the T70.

The price nerf and the heavy drop in usage after that, even in teamgames where resources are more plentiful, shows IMO that the issue was less in the performance of the weapon rather than in timings against a specific faction. Compare that to the SVT upgrade which still sees usage even after the price increase.


The problem with the PPSH upgrade is 2 IMO:

-How many commanders are there with PPSH which might lead to problems in balance. (For ex: it's far easier to adjust the power from SVTs when it's on a single commander).
-It competes with SVT (early) and 7man upgrade (late).

As others have recommended: i would just give it the same treatment as the 7man upgrade in regards to xp gain.

Do you guys think that replacing a molotov for a "normal" nade for ppsh conscript would be enough to make this upgrade more viable? [Idea for Miragefla balance patch]

Not really. Only against OH. Playing Cons, even with PPSH, was a generally bad choice against OKW at the time.

How so? 40 muni and it either increases dps or keeps it the same depending on range. I could agree the commander choice isn't a no-brainer, but that has way more factors

The price nerf and the heavy drop in usage after that, even in teamgames where resources are more plentiful, shows IMO that the issue was less in the performance of the weapon rather than in timings against a specific faction. Compare that to the SVT upgrade which still sees usage even after the price increase.

I mentioned the SVT upgrade earlier, it's clearly much better, and I would argue it's right on the threshold of being too good. Same goes for some of the OH doctrinal inf options I think you were alluding too

As others have recommended: i would just give it the same treatment as the 7man upgrade in regards to xp gain.

Yup got no problem with that change. Giving them 6 ppshs on the other hand...

It matters more to cqc squads

man just compare your argument to darkarmadillo`s....

I have pointed out to you multiple times that cons have hoorah

and volks MP40 can close in using smoke... i hope you dont underestimate the value of smoke as a mobility and general utility tool yes?

Survivability is more important for units that can't sit behind cover to deal their optimal dps. You'll notice that most long range squads function with 4 man squads while most assault units are pooched if they have a small squad size. Matter of fact ass engies got an extra model specifically because of that.

yeah but mobility in my opinion takes precidence over survivability... its much easier to close in when you have sprint or smoke in order to block or reduce long range DPS as opposed to having to walk up to try to tank damage...

After playing for several days with the PPSh-41 assault package. I realized that this is a pretty pointless upgrade right now. It comes at 2CP and costs 60 ammo. It gives only 3 PPSh-41, which makes it indefinite, it deprives the conscripts of at least some kind of ranged combat, but at the same time does not give them much CQC. That is, what makes it unique? PPSh-41 is a doctrinal upgrade that can not oppose anything to the rest of the infantry. The only thing he can do is beat the Grenadiers, but for this you need to spend ammunition for the "Ura" in order to come to an effective distance, turning the conscripts into a ammunition black hole.

...
The price nerf and the heavy drop in usage after that, even in teamgames where resources are more plentiful, shows IMO that the issue was less in the performance of the weapon rather than in timings against a specific faction. Compare that to the SVT upgrade which still sees usage even after the price increase.
...

Not sure that agree with the analysis or the comparison.

PPSh at the time was at CP 3 so it come relatively late.

SVT are CP 1! and improve DPS in all range and on the move.

In the commander has the access to powerful Ram+strafe combination.

I do agree that performance of PPsh is fine thought.

Do you guys think that replacing a molotov for a "normal" nade for ppsh conscript would be enough to make this upgrade more viable? [Idea for Miragefla balance patch]

That would make them "too viable" IMO, though muni intensive. The upgrade would be good just because it has a normal nade rather than the weapon itself. It would be a matter if you can afford it or not, which would just push the upgrade on been better in the late game. Something which is not necessarily the problem nowadays with Soviets.

Feels like it would be a "snowball" upgrade. As long as you have munitions and the map lead, you will see PPSH cons oorahing and throwing nades.


Grenades and balance walks through a slim line. Been able to have an ability which suddenly is able to wipe a squad is powerful. Specially on a 6 man squad with sprint.

How so? 40 muni and it either increases dps or keeps it the same depending on range. I could agree the commander choice isn't a no-brainer, but that has way more factors

ehh no their DPS at range 20 (midrange DPS) is reduced by 32.58%...

Yup got no problem with that change. Giving them 6 ppshs on the other hand...

i actually kinda agree now... someone else has given the actually good argument of 6 man vet 3 cons PPSH which may be (extremely) oppressive... but cost reductions to 45 mp adjustments to medium and long DPS to match MP40 and some sort of HE/concussion grenade should also be considered

man just compare your argument to darkarmadillo`s....

He literally explained one of the most basic aspects of the game to you. Forgive me for thinking you understood that long range squads don't need survivability as much as cqc ones

He literally explained one of the most basic aspects of the game to you. Forgive me for thinking you understood that long range squads don't need survivability as much as cqc ones

as ive said... while i agree CQC squads synergize with survivability i think the synergy is minimal in contrast to mobility and CQC squads as ive pointed out above...

That would make them "too viable" IMO, though muni intensive. The upgrade would be good just because it has a normal nade rather than the weapon itself. It would be a matter if you can afford it or not, which would just push the upgrade on been better in the late game. Something which is not necessarily the problem nowadays with Soviets.

Feels like it would be a "snowball" upgrade. As long as you have munitions and the map lead, you will see PPSH cons oorahing and throwing nades.


Grenades and balance walks through a slim line. Been able to have an ability which suddenly is able to wipe a squad is powerful. Specially on a 6 man squad with sprint.

I can't see how it would be "too viable" given this is the exact thing volk MP40s get and we don't see all of the volks being upgraded because of that.

Also, it would be incredibly unsustainable, map control or not, given at least 30 nade cost and oorah cost.
However even stun nade would do.

I can't see how it would be "too viable" given this is the exact thing volk MP40s get and we don't see all of the volks being upgraded because of that.

Volks have stgs available at the same time, cons need to wait til t4 and we all know how fun vanilla cons against stgs volks is until 7 man arrives

Volks have stgs available at the same time, cons need to wait til t4 and we all know how fun vanilla cons against stgs volks is until 7 man arrives

That's just for 1v1.
In 2v2 dynamic, volks will still bleed you with impunity unless you go SVT, unless opponent is stupid and allows you to freely close in, its also much more managable there to hold out until 7th man, which is incomparably stronger and more viable then ppsh while benefiting much more from HTD offered by ppsh slot.

That's just for 1v1.
In 2v2 dynamic, volks will still bleed you with impunity unless you go SVT, unless opponent is stupid and allows you to freely close in.

Huh? I was talking about why we don't see mp40s that much and how that example doesnt compare to a soviet player choosing ppshs

Oorah allows you to overcome that. And if it's 2v2 or more, your muni income will be much more stable

Huh? I was talking about why we don't see mp40s that much and how that example doesnt compare to a soviet player choosing ppshs

Oorah allows you to overcome that. And if it's 2v2 or more, your muni income will be much more stable

Smoke nades which MP40 grants also allow you to overcome that potential bleed you know.

Smoke nades which MP40 grants also allow you to overcome that potential bleed you know.

plus without the STG you could expect the MP40 to appear alot more than the PPSH will... that or people will just spam panzerfusiliers... and arguably smoke synergizes with cqc squads more than sprint since it allows mobility without being hindered by damage..

Smoke nades which MP40 grants also allow you to overcome that potential bleed you know.

Smoke is only better if your in the cone of the mg. Sprint is objectively better in pretty much every other situation, and it helps for snaring too

Smoke is only better if your in the cone of the mg. Sprint is objectively better in pretty much every other situation, and it helps for snaring too

You... never used it against LMG squads sitting behind green cover?
You are going to lose less health then with oorah, because both squads don't do damage on approach.
Only shocks can allow themselves to just walk up to regular inf without bleed and without that kind of help.

snip

1-I'm saying that even at it's peak, it was more of a VS OH pick rather than a general no brainer upgrade overall. Most weapon upgrades are good regardless which faction you are facing.
Even with 40muni PPSH, you still didn't want to use Cons against OKW.

2-I allude to both, OH doctrinal choices (AssG, 5man, Osstruppen) or non doctrinal improvements such as tech, PGs, 251, vet 3 Grens and T4.

3-6 PPSH can be fine but require much more tweaking than it's worth. For starters, i don't think you can just paste their current performance, give them 6x and call it a day. It would probable see an individual performance nerf with slight better 6 man performance but at the end of the day it would be an overall nerf cause it's better to have less weapon with better performance.

Imagine if we were to nerf G43 on Grens and give them 4 instead. They would suck ass.

As far as the SVT goes, i do think it walks a thin line but i think it's easier to adjust the commander, specially when you can just balance the IL2 rocket strafe without affecting other commanders. If anything this last months, we know that the commanders is not carrying the Soviets, at least on 1v1.

(offtopic: as listed last in the changelog, the ability is still "been monitored" and could still see some small tweaks)

Not sure that agree with the analysis or the comparison.

If PPSH was good enough in teamgames, the 2 CP change would had boosted it's use as it's much harder to get CPs than in 1v1.

My opinion in SVT is above and i've said (in the past) that if the ability is still good (irregardless if Soviets are good or not overall) one way to balance it out is by increasing the cd. So you can still field a single one at 1CP but not back to back upgrade all Cons as fast.

Anyway, i was just mentioning that the "scary" 3CP 40 muni PPSh was not as scary as it looked like.

You... never used it against LMG squads sitting behind green cover?

Read what I said again and tell me how you could possibly pull that out? I said sprint is better not that smoke is useless

Shocks also have nothing to do with what I said. You know you can use hoorah to flank and go around things right? It's a lot more surprising than a squad walking through a smoke grenade they just threw