Why Ostheer is OP

As far as future discussion goes, it would be better if at one point OP made pretty clear what points are really his main concerns and what were exaggerated for sarcasm purposes.

I think it's way easier what needs to be changed for OH for it to work both in 1v1 and teamgames compared to the SU thread which has far way worst broad problems.

6, 12 and 14 were exaggerated. 5 a bit on the 222 aspect, but I do think the 251 has terrorized the meta with 5man Grens blobs and pak40s as a huge blob moving around the map. Absolutely cancerous to fight against. 251 in general should lose the 2nd garrison slot imo. Flamer dabs on soviets, noone can argue against it. The rest of the points I stand behind 100%.

What needs to happen for Ostheer asap:
1) Osttruppen +10 secs recharge
2) T1 fuel cost moved to BP1
3) Remove 10% RA bonus that VSL gives
4) Reduce the veterancy bonuses on rate of fire that Ostheer sniper gets
5) Pgrens moved back to T2
6) BP3 fuel cost increased by 20.

Some of the points Stormjäger made are valid and indeed very annoying but it's never going to change as many people are convinced Ostheer is somehow the "best designed faction and the "benchmark" for every other faction.

IMO Ostheer is probably the most annoying faction to play against and at the same time the worst designed faction because obvious weaknesses like not having a light tank and not having good main-line infantry non-doctrinally are compensated with stupid stuff like MG42 + call-in Infantry + T0 Pgrens coming way too early.

What I hate the most about Ostheer is that any other faction allows you to have somewhat fluid infantry fights in the first minutes of the game and that's IMO the most fun time frame of COH2 matches but with Ostheer this just doesn't happen as the MG42 needs to be constantly outmaneuvered. This might not apply to 1v1 as much because the MG42 can't just cover half the map in that game mode but in 2v2 and 3v3 I find it very annoying.

yeah the MG42 is a bit over the top compared to every other machinegun... but to be fair ostheer also suffers from having one of the worst line infantry in the game just slightly tailed by the conscript...

what i do find odd is why SOV and OKW are both expected to "survive" with a conscript and volks opening while OST is generally assumed to be unplayable without the MG42...

now i understand that OST has to contend with USF and UKF which both have brutal line infantry to punish OST with.... but if thats the case then i can only begin to imagine how trash OKW and SOV are compared to the 3 souped up factions

and if thats the case maybe we should make the MG34 and the maxim MG42 clones to compensate... or maybe we can just nerf rifles infantry sections and MG42s...

Some of the points Stormjäger made are valid and indeed very annoying but it's never going to change as many people are convinced Ostheer is somehow the "best designed faction and the "benchmark" for every other faction.

IMO Ostheer is probably the most annoying faction to play against and at the same time the worst designed faction because obvious weaknesses like not having a light tank and not having good main-line infantry non-doctrinally are compensated with stupid stuff like MG42 + call-in Infantry + T0 Pgrens coming way too early.

What I hate the most about Ostheer is that any other faction allows you to have somewhat fluid infantry fights in the first minutes of the game and that's IMO the most fun time frame of COH2 matches but with Ostheer this just doesn't happen as the MG42 needs to be constantly outmaneuvered. This might not apply to 1v1 as much because the MG42 can't just cover half the map in that game mode but in 2v2 and 3v3 I find it very annoying.

Ostheer do have good mainline infantry nowadays. Grenadiers are quite good at what they do, which is to provide firepower at long range. They morph into more generalist infantry with the VSL upgrade (And with the G43 upgrade, but honestly the G43 upgrade is not very good on Grens)

No, they don't have a "light tank", but this is because they get a very early light vehicle in the form of the 222 or 251. The 222 is fantastic at the time it enters the field, and for its price, and later turns into a fairly effective AA platform, and LOS provider. The 251 is in a similar boat, being a very effective shock vehicle.

Im not really sure how outmanoeuvring the OST MG is really any worse than any other sort of infantry manoeuvring, incidentally.

Im not really sure how outmanoeuvring the OST MG is really any worse than any other sort of infantry manoeuvring, incidentally.

because one mistake means GG for the most part... suppression is soo quick that there is quite literally no way you can poke in then poke out unlike when dueling an MG34 vickers or maxim...

only the 50 cal and the DSHK have this potential... and the 50 cal is more expensive comes at a higher tech has lower arc and suffers from the deathloop (albeit a less severe version)... the DSHK is even more expensive is doctrinal has a much smaller arc and suffers badly from the deathloop...

the MG42 simply takes all of the advantages of the MG34/vickers/maxim "class" and the advantages of the 50 cal/DSHK "class"

it is easily the best machinegun in the game... and its supposed to compensate for "deficient infantry".... wait till they hear of conscripts....




just as a fun side note... its ironic that the primary contender and the former holder of the title of best machinegun is the current worst machinegun ingame... the maxim...

what i do find odd is why SOV and OKW are both expected to "survive" with a conscript and volks opening while OST is generally assumed to be unplayable without the MG42

Because 4man Grens cost 30mp per model and get absolutely rekt by Rifles and Sections in the early game. The exception is the sniper and 3 grens start with german infantry meta vs UKF which is dominant, but doesn’t work vs USF and Soviets.

Because 4man Grens cost 30mp per model and get absolutely rekt by Rifles and Sections in the early game. The exception is the sniper and 3 grens start with german infantry meta vs UKF which is dominant, but doesn’t work vs USF and Soviets.

reinforce costs for grens are equivalent to that of conscripts...

and yes grens do get rekt by rifles and IS... but so will volks and conscripts (if ever cons were to face them)... it might be wise to reevaluate the balance then as to why 2 of the factions ingame are uttery defenseless against the other 2 factions... even if one of them is in the same side...

so the lack of response on this thread means that people agree that OST is OP?

so the lack of response on this thread means that people agree that OST is OP?

ohh there were responses... they were just deleted... mostly axis trolls

so, axis is OP, and that's the final word?

anything that is contrary to this post will be deleted?

GGWP

so, axis is OP, and that's the final word?

anything that is contrary to this post will be deleted?

GGWP

mate if anything the posts in this forum proved that forum bias was in favor of axis... the "soviet OP" thread had none of the toxic and biased behavior in it and had a pretty lengthy discussion while the "ostheer OP" thread had every single defender of the reich come to its aid....

ignoring how the soviets are objectively the actual underpowered faction of course...

I see less than a dozen people making comments favourably to the claim of the OP, and found not a single one refuting it all.

where is this bias you were talking about?

I see less than a dozen people making comments favourably to the claim of the OP, and found not a single one refuting it all.

where is this bias you were talking about?

deleted by the moderators for being troll posts... you can ask anyone here for confirmation...

I believe you, but i was being sarcastic
perhaps i should make a ''OST is UP'' thread and delete anything that crawls out of the woodwork

I believe you, but i was being sarcastic
perhaps i should make a ''OST is UP'' thread and delete anything that crawls out of the woodwork

nah make an allies UP thread and watch the fireworks....

Counting trolls and even talking about them is generally a non constructive posting and should be avoided when possible.

Focusing on the game and not not the people is far more constructive.

6, 12 and 14 were exaggerated. 5 a bit on the 222 aspect, but I do think the 251 has terrorized the meta with 5man Grens blobs and pak40s as a huge blob moving around the map. Absolutely cancerous to fight against. 251 in general should lose the 2nd garrison slot imo. Flamer dabs on soviets, noone can argue against it. The rest of the points I stand behind 100%.

What needs to happen for Ostheer asap:
1) Osttruppen +10 secs recharge
2) T1 fuel cost moved to BP1
3) Remove 10% RA bonus that VSL gives
4) Reduce the veterancy bonuses on rate of fire that Ostheer sniper gets
5) Pgrens moved back to T2
6) BP3 fuel cost increased by 20.

I think the problem lies more on Ostruppen and 5men gren than the rest of the list. Ostruppen need some kind of debuff like a movement penalty out of cover that could go once Vet1 or T4 is built so they can't swarm early on. 5men gren could simply lose their pfaust once upgraded to be less of a braindead upgrade. And I'll move shrek to T2 and leave Pgrens where they are.
Instead of BP3+20 fuel, I'll increase P4 cost by 10 fuel giving more room for the Ostwind and Stug.

I think the problem lies more on Ostruppen and 5men gren than the rest of the list. Ostruppen need some kind of debuff like a movement penalty out of cover that could go once Vet1 or T4 is built so they can't swarm early on. 5men gren could simply lose their pfaust once upgraded to be less of a braindead upgrade. And I'll move shrek to T2 and leave Pgrens where they are.
Instead of BP3+20 fuel, I'll increase P4 cost by 10 fuel giving more room for the Ostwind and Stug.

Movement speed penalties for Ostruppen is pretty dumb,and unprecedented, honestly. Making them buildable instead of a callin (as all units should be, in my opinion) and slowing down their building so they don't reach critical mass as quickly would be a better solution. Their combat performance is not their issue.

Removing Fausts from 5man Grens is kind of an absurd nerf. It does nothing to what people complain about regarding 5man Grens, while making them completely defenseless vs light vehicles, and obviously vs heavier ones. Reducing or removing, dependent on how much a difference it really makes, their RA bonus would be better.

I think Pgrens primarily cause issues due to their synergy with the currently overperforming (in 1v1) Ostruppen. I'm not sure they particularly need moving, nor their Shreck upgrade. Feel free to provide a counterargument for this.

What's the logic on pushing back BP3, anyway? Is it widely considered that OST get their mediums too quickly? I wasnt really aware of it being particularly faster or cheaper than other armies.

Im not sure why the OST sniper specifically needs its ROF at vet toning down, either. I'm testing it in cheatmod right now, and while a vet3 OST sniper fires more quickly than a vet3 Soviet sniper, it really doesnt seem to be egregiously faster.


What are the winrates like for Ostruppen and VSL builds, anyway? They certainly seem to get used a lot, but I haven't seen any statistics on how they actually fare.

I wonder how much fun playing as ost can be with just pioneers, stugs and ostwinds. OP sure says a lot about how much he plays ost, for a change.

Removing Fausts from 5man Grens is kind of an absurd nerf. It does nothing to what people complain about regarding 5man Grens, while making them completely defenseless vs light vehicles, and obviously vs heavier ones. Reducing or removing, dependent on how much a difference it really makes, their RA bonus would be better.

actually this would lead to not converting all the grens to 5 man grens which would help level out the power level by making it a choice with a drawback. all upgrades should follow this sort of balancing. removing the faust for the gren is actually a fairly elegant solution that keeps the 5 men strong and unique but not overwhelming.