The maxim thread
27 Oct 2020, 16:30 PM
#41
Posts: 5279
Imo if it's vet ability was non vet and vet reduced the muni cost the gun would be fine.
#stalinwept
27 Oct 2020, 16:37 PM
#42
Posts: 783
the problem with the T-70 is because it melded both great anti infantry performance while being capable of punishing its counterparts such as the luchs/222/FHT/flametruck in a fast unit... these changes make it less of a hard counter against the luchs 222 and flaktruck and make it considerably easier to beat it off with armored support...
these changes makes sure the T-70 has similar anti infantry performance against the luchs but no longer punishingly effective when fighting it...
It might be a combinationof these attributes but what makes it SCARY is its AI, not its AT. If you want to reduce its power to make it not "OP" you have to address the anti infantry.
the 7 man upgrade at that cost comes no later than the ostheer LMG42... in that case its fine since the 7 man upgrade is roughly comparable to LMG grens anyways...
If all the 7 man upgrade did was give a 7th model (+17% dps and +17% durability) then i would agree. However it also gives +20% increase to vet gain, -2 reinforce cost and +8-15% dps for models when in cover.
the issue with the SU-76 is the complete lack of scaling for the unit... by adding the upgrade the unit now scales into the lategame and is not rendered totally obsolete by the SU-85
The Su76 scales better than any other vehicle of similar cost. Compare it to aec, stuart, puma etc. Yes it does drop off, so do many units but thats not the issue. The main issue is that the SU76 is inferior in its primary role to the Su85, and by a decent margin. As long as they have such a degree of role overlap, one of them will be obsolete.
this is definitely a difficult point... we both agree that the maxim needs more suppression but cannot agree as to what value it should have... imo i think MG42 suppression is fine for the maxim so long as it gets a pack time nerf aswell...
Its just too much.
27 Oct 2020, 16:43 PM
#43
Posts: 1979
If all the 7 man upgrade did was give a 7th model (+17% dps and +17% durability) then i would agree. However it also gives +20% increase to vet gain, -2 reinforce cost and +8-15% dps for models when in cover.
the LMG meanwhile provides a +37.48% damage boost at range 20... and over +46.091% at range 30... thats a huge difference
It might be a combinationof these attributes but what makes it SCARY is its AI, not its AT. If you want to reduce its power to make it not "OP" you have to address the anti infantry.
its AI is no better than a luchs imo... if the luchs is fine with its current AI then the problem is less likely to be with its AI and more likely to be with the combination of its AI AT and high speed... soo id prolly start from there...
The Su76 scales better than any other vehicle of similar cost. Compare it to aec, stuart, puma etc. Yes it does drop off, so do many units but thats not the issue. The main issue is that the SU76 is inferior in its primary role to the Su85, and by a decent margin. As long as they have such a degree of role overlap, one of them will be obsolete.
the main problem is that the bigger unit basically outclasses it outright and renders it obsolete... hence better scaling through an optional upgrade improves its lategame performance and prevents it from being rendered obsolete...
Its just too much.
why?
27 Oct 2020, 16:45 PM
#44
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
To for me the maxim is bad. It's to do with the cost (it's not worth 260mp), but more importantly the tech requirement.
In 1v1 if you try something like con-con-maxim or 3x con into maxim you just lose too much ground because of the 160mp cost and buildtime of T2 keeping your engies in base, and you will get rolled by LVs because you also need AT nades and a Zis3 to deal with 222s/flame HT/ P2. You have to skip medics if you want to put it into your build early on, and then you will suffer from the axis weapon upgrades.
In 1v1 if you try something like con-con-maxim or 3x con into maxim you just lose too much ground because of the 160mp cost and buildtime of T2 keeping your engies in base, and you will get rolled by LVs because you also need AT nades and a Zis3 to deal with 222s/flame HT/ P2. You have to skip medics if you want to put it into your build early on, and then you will suffer from the axis weapon upgrades.
27 Oct 2020, 16:48 PM
#45
Posts: 783
the LMG meanwhile provides a +37.48% damage boost at range 20... and over +46.091% at range 30... thats a huge difference
The dps increase also scales down to nothing the closer the range and reduces mobile dps by 25%.
The extra model provides 17% extra dps at ALL ranges AND on the move plus the extra damage output from the cover bonus.
27 Oct 2020, 16:53 PM
#46
Posts: 1979
The dps increase also scales down to nothing the closer the range and reduces mobile dps by 25%.
idk... knife fighting and mobile DPS are important but id consider range 20 and range 30 DPS as more important judging by how i play...
The extra model provides 17% extra dps at ALL ranges AND on the move plus the extra damage output from the cover bonus.
dont worry... grens still beat cons most of the time in medium to long ranged cover to cover fights...
27 Oct 2020, 16:57 PM
#47
Posts: 783
idk... knife fighting and mobile DPS are important but id consider range 20 and range 30 DPS as more important judging by how i play...
I wouldnt judge the efficacy of an upgrade based on a playstyle that is incompatible with it. If your preferred engagements take place at 20-30 meters then no wonder you think the 7man cons is a bad upgrade.
dont worry... grens still beat cons most of the time in medium to long ranged cover to cover fights...
In cover, 7 man Cons will trade COST efficiently even at 20 range against LMG grens.
If you removed the vet bonus and cover bonus I could see the 7 man upgrade at tier 3.
27 Oct 2020, 17:05 PM
#48
Posts: 1979
I wouldnt judge the efficacy of an upgrade based on a playstyle that is incompatible with it. If your preferred engagements take place at 20-30 meters then no wonder you think the 7man cons is a bad upgrade.
well yeah against ost one kinda needs you to run straight up into them and knife fight them...till the panzergrenadiers arrive at least... then you have to use other tricks before before attacking... in any case i still think range 20 to 30 DPS is more important than knife fighting DPS due to how surface area works (ie there is more surface area between ranges 20 to 30 than ranges 0 to 10)... but i dont have problems with the 7 man upgrade personally... just that its living hell till you get that upgrade...
7 man Cons will trade COST efficiently even at 20 range against LMG grens.
not really... i remember testing it some time ago and at range 20 LMG grens still win (but barely)... under range 20 though they start losing...
If you removed the vet bonus and cover bonus I could see the upgrade at tier 3.
i can do away with the vet bonus... but the cover bonus is a must imo...
27 Oct 2020, 17:21 PM
#49
Posts: 783
well yeah against ost one kinda needs you to run straight up into them and knife fight them...till the panzergrenadiers arrive at least... then you have to use other tricks before before attacking... in any case i still think range 20 to 30 DPS is more important than knife fighting DPS due to how surface area works (ie there is more surface area between ranges 20 to 30 than ranges 0 to 10)... but i dont have problems with the 7 man upgrade personally... just that its living hell till you get that upgrade...
I dont understand your terminology,
what do you mean by surface area? As for whether dps is better to have at long range or short range, long range is easier to use because most engagements will start at your optimum range. But I think that "all range generalists" are more useful to the skilled player. Think BAR rifles, FG42 FSJ, Panzergrenadiers, penals etc. The advantage to generalists is that they can flex. A good player can move them to a range which will best suit them for the situation. Units like LMG42 grens, shocks, MP40 volks etc. Do not have this flexibility. They are good at one range and one range only and if they are beaten at that range they are flat beaten. If they can't stay at that range they are beaten.
not really... i remember testing it some time ago and at range 20 LMG grens still win (but barely)... under range 20 though they start losing...
My experience here has been that its a coin toss chance at 20-25 range.
i can do away with the vet bonus... but the cover bonus is a must imo...
Its like bolster and a individual weapon upgrade rolled into one with some juicy extras on the side. Makes sense at tier 4, not at tier 3. Not without additional expenditure anyway.
27 Oct 2020, 17:30 PM
#50
Posts: 1979
I dont understand your terminology,
what do you mean by surface area?
its a mathematical equivalent to the area covered by a certain shape... draw a torus around a unit with a maximum radius of 30 and a minimum of 20 and you will find it have more area than a circle with the radius 10... it also means there is significantly more area u can put your unit at where it can be effective against an opposing unit...
As for whether dps is better to have at long range or short range, long range is easier to use because most engagements will start at your optimum range. But I think that "all range generalists" are more useful to the skilled player. Think BAR rifles, FG42 FSJ, Panzergrenadiers, penals etc. The advantage to generalists is that they can flex. A good player can move them to a range which will best suit them for the situation. Units like LMG42 grens, shocks, MP40 volks etc. Do not have this flexibility. They are good at one range and one range only and if they are beaten at that range they are flat beaten. If they can't stay at that range they are beaten.
i both agree and disagree with this... yes generalist units are the preferred choice to specialist units as it is easy to defeat the opposing unit by moving out of its preferred combat distance... but a difference of 17% dps at all ranges really does pale in comparison to a +37.48% to +46.091% damage boost at range 20-30....
its kinda why shocks are considered good units despite being specialist units... they are really really good at what they do (thanks to dps and body armor) to the point that they are worth using...
tldr: being a specialist doesnt automatically make the upgrade worse... sometimes the specialized upgrade is simply soo large that it simply overtakes the standard one...
Its like bolster and a individual weapon upgrade rolled into one with some juicy extras on the side. Makes sense at tier 4, not at tier 3. Not without additional expenditure anyway.
its a bolster that provides +17% increase in stats instead of +25%... it also needs 50 muni per unit and needs an upgrade of 18mp to reach full squad size and is not automatically done...
27 Oct 2020, 17:36 PM
#51
Posts: 1979
also i miscalculated... its a 34.94% boost at range 20 and a whopping 60.49% at range 30...
27 Oct 2020, 18:04 PM
#52
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
If you removed the vet bonus and cover bonus I could see the 7 man upgrade at tier 3.
If you are going that route it has no business being later unlocked than T1/T2.
27 Oct 2020, 18:08 PM
#53
Posts: 956
ok... who the fck gets machineguns for DPS? also maxims have a similar DPS curve to the MG42... its difference is soo minor it doesnt warrant jack shit...
Apparently just normal daytime gaming according to someone in the Shoutbox.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
27 Oct 2020, 18:11 PM
#54
Posts: 1979
Apparently just normal daytime gaming according to someone in the Shoutbox.
any MG can be spammed in a teamgame... vickers MG42 MG34 maxim 50 cal DSHK... just to varying degrees of effectiveness... the maxim is most certainly the least effective of them however
27 Oct 2020, 19:57 PM
#56
Posts: 1289
Maxim is mostly fine. It shouldn't be on par with MG42/50cal or vickers. But the price should reflect that - 240mp. I think the mg34 should also be 240
Indeed. 100% agreed with what is said here. I also said this before.
Its not worth 260mp. It worse in all areas that matter. Make it 240mp again.
Or have sustained fire be vet 0 and vet 1 makes it cheaper. Then 260mp is more or less justified
27 Oct 2020, 20:08 PM
#57
Posts: 1392
The reason why its 260 is, because it too potential as blobb.
Without a build-limit it can't be cheaper. Over all, I am still for give build-limits for early HMGs. There is no reason to build 2-3 HMGs in early, that would also fix the problems of OKW versus that stupid opener. Also less MH42 would be a nice change in larger multiplayer games.
Without a build-limit it can't be cheaper. Over all, I am still for give build-limits for early HMGs. There is no reason to build 2-3 HMGs in early, that would also fix the problems of OKW versus that stupid opener. Also less MH42 would be a nice change in larger multiplayer games.
27 Oct 2020, 20:52 PM
#58
Posts: 449
any MG can be spammed in a teamgame... vickers MG42 MG34 maxim 50 cal DSHK... just to varying degrees of effectiveness... the maxim is most certainly the least effective of them however
The only MGs I ever see spammed are Maxims and MG42s. I think this is not because of the MGs themselves, but because the Eastern Front line infantry tend to be less appealing than the Western front line infantry. Granted, this is not a balance-oriented observation. This is just a general observation based on faction design.
27 Oct 2020, 21:08 PM
#59
Posts: 5279
The only MGs I ever see spammed are Maxims and MG42s. I think this is not because of the MGs themselves, but because the Eastern Front line infantry tend to be less appealing than the Western front line infantry. Granted, this is not a balance-oriented observation. This is just a general observation based on faction design.
Probably in part because EFA are designed to be part of an army, not the entire thing.
#stalinwept
27 Oct 2020, 22:31 PM
#60
Posts: 219
maxim is the worst of the bunch, but still has its uses, not worth the 260mp for sure.
but it can be used more for offensive action compared to defensive action due to its quick setup/teardown, and the same enables it to react more quickly to flanks, an mg42 would normally not be able to be ready to fire in time if it gets flanked due to its longer setup/teardown.
it can still be used to great effect if microed, 6man squad making it a bad nightmare for OST sniper, can be merged with cons.
(insert meme thing from the chernobyl miniseries)
but it can be used more for offensive action compared to defensive action due to its quick setup/teardown, and the same enables it to react more quickly to flanks, an mg42 would normally not be able to be ready to fire in time if it gets flanked due to its longer setup/teardown.
it can still be used to great effect if microed, 6man squad making it a bad nightmare for OST sniper, can be merged with cons.
(insert meme thing from the chernobyl miniseries)
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