[OKW] FlammPanzer Hetzer

Hello,

As a second part to an old previous post about the FlammPanzer Hetzer from the FeuerSturm commander, we pretty much all agreed that this tank has a weird place among the OKW due to its timing (much later than the Luch and a little bit earlier than the P4) making it a poor choice.

There is a lot of different directions to improve it, we could improve its stats or its timing or even both at the same time. But when we look at it we only see that the main problem is survivability due to the lack of turret and poor timing.

So I believe the cost/stats are good as they are and the only 2 problems which needs to be adress are timing and mobility (mainly timing).

I propose to make it a call-in unit at 5CP and give it a little bit of Acc/decc buff.
(5CP call-in purpose is mainly to allow player to overcome techtree necessity with poor design as we all know, based on the Ost-Puma and Ost-StugE timing)

I think is needs more frontal armor and a smaller hit-box.

It's Hetzer-Time, baby.

I think is needs more frontal armor and a smaller hit-box.

It's Hetzer-Time, baby.

Its got 180 armor, its not supposed to tank ATGs and that's enough to not be forced off by a singular med.

I think is needs more frontal armor and a smaller hit-box.

It's Hetzer-Time, baby.

180 armor seems enough, and in general I doubt you can balance effectively a non-heavy tank with armor. A smaller hit-box could be good but rely more on RNG than actual player micro, that's why I prefer acc/decc buff which reward micro more than luck

180 armor seems enough, and in general I doubt you can balance effectively a non-heavy tank with armor. A smaller hit-box could be good but rely more on RNG than actual player micro, that's why I prefer acc/decc buff which reward micro more than luck

yea, that is true. But I think, Hetzer is a good unit.

I think is would be more important to nerf other flamers DPS a bit, before touching Hetzer. KV8 and Croc are kind of extreme in comparison.

yea, that is true. But I think, Hetzer is a good unit.

I think is would be more important to nerf other flamers DPS a bit, before touching Hetzer. KV8 and Croc are kind of extreme in comparison.

When Hetzer arrives on field, there is 1 ATG and maybe a light tank present.

When KV-8 and Croc arrive on field, there are multiple ATGs and tanks/TDs present.

I think is needs more frontal armor and a smaller hit-box.

It's Hetzer-Time, baby.

It has a target size of 15 (kubel is 14) so no absolutely definitely not that.

yea, that is true. But I think, Hetzer is a good unit.

I think is would be more important to nerf other flamers DPS a bit, before touching Hetzer. KV8 and Croc are kind of extreme in comparison.

Well, I understand your point but I personaly didn't ask myself much about the balance of the KV-8/croc so I can't give a proper opinion, once I'll have enough experience on it I would create a proper topic.

For its peformance the timing is just too late. There is no reason to go for a Hetzer when you can just wait 40 fuel and get the P4. But there is not much you can do about the timing unless you change the t4 tech cost and even when you play with fire. Cause if it comes at a time where most factions dont have enough at it will just finish the game alone.

So you probably have to adjust its performance when the timing cant be changed. The dmg is good enough compared to other flamer tanks. But its hp are laughable for a non turret tank, who can barely flank, and the target size is just a dice roll and not reliable enough. The best idea is probably to make it more tanky and increase its cost at the same rate. Maybe in the same league the kv-8 is at the moment.

No there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Hetzer when you look at all of its stats. Damage is good and so is the armor and especially the target size.

It arrives a bit earler than a p4 and always kills a single AT gun frontally, a p4 cannot do that.

Its awkward because unlike pretty much any other tank with a main weapon-including ai specialists- the hetzer has literally zero anti vehicle capability. Coupled with the lack of turret, this means the vehicle is vulnerable to a T70 or hell, an M3 with penals. If you need a medium tank to get breathing room against allied lights, the hetzer simply cannot offer it.

Sure its great against AT guns, the damage output is fine against infantry in general but often around that medium tank timing you need something to scare off your opponents light vehicles or something that can even just provide support against your opponents soon to arrive medium tank.

Honestly I wish it could just be a generalist medium with no turret but longer range. But ughh its got that ridiculous flamethrower. Seriously, it would be great if it was a P4 gun(it literally is) with 50 range but no turret.


The truth is I have no good suggestions about what could reasonably be done to make the vehicle more then just a meme tank.
Maybe it could be turned into a command vehicle where its primary draw would be the support functions.
Maybe you could give it a super hard nerf and stick it in battlegroup at a reduced cost-think like a UC wasp on steroids.

But realistically, I think best thing to do would just be remove it and replace it with something more useful.

Imo there are number of changes that could help the unit:

1) Make the unit call in. The decision to make main battle tanks require building is fine but specialized units like hetzter/Ostwind/Kv-8 can remain call-in or being built from HQ.

That would allow different built orders.

2) Increase armor from 80. The unit has sort range and no turret and it can easily expose rear/side armor.

3) As will all flame weapon I suggest removing DOT from auto-fire and adding an ability that creates DOT.

4) Increase acceleration to 2+ this not a heavy tank

This unit is inherently really specific to certain situations, what I intend to do is at least to make it viable in specific situation, the rest is up to players to judge when it fits or not.

Right now the unit itself is fairly good but can't find any good utility, even in urbans maps where it should be good due to a lack of turret and bad timing.

All we can do is give it a shot and see if we were right or if the flammHetzer has to be a meme unit.

I'll rather test Hetzer + Ostwind require no Panzer requisition while increasing the base cost of the Flak HQ (reduce cost of upg accordingly.

I'll rather test Hetzer + Ostwind require no Panzer requisition while increasing the base cost of the Flak HQ (reduce cost of upg accordingly.

That would delay Obersoldaten again. Splitting up the tech-cost, was because Obers came too late.

Oops, hit "Edit" instead of reply.

You still need the upgrade for the weapon upgrade. In this case, you can just put the upgrade behind the truck placement.

Without going into cost adjustments, this is what i'll rather see for OKW as a whole.

-Faust after truck is called. I think this will eventually come. Which will give room to buff units like the M3A3.
-Replace flak bunkers on base with normal MG bunkers.
-Swap reinforcement with medics as default on BGHQ. Have them heal slightly slower. Put a 45/60 muni upgrade for normal/improve healing speed.
-Fuse reinforcement + retreat point and give it a new cost.
-Obers can be deployed from HQ after 2 trucks had been placed. Any combination. LMG behind FlakHQ. Maybe IR STG without it as Spec OPs is not as strong.
-With previous suggestion on call ins + cost swap, i think JPIV could be behind the first part of the Flak HQ.
-As far as vehicles requirements go, Panzer Req should be a 1 time bought, but the weapon upgrade not. If you lose the Flak HQ, after deploying it vanilla you should still have access to vehicles but not the Flak cannon, which would need to be rebought.

-Fuse reinforcement + retreat point and give it a new cost

Those should definitely stay split up, as the FRP requires T4 and the forward reinforcement should be available much earlier than that, given how OKW has no other means for that.

Lock off shouldn't disable refresh on heal-base, maybe a debuff of 50% etc.

Those should definitely stay split up, as the FRP requires T4 and the forward reinforcement should be available much earlier than that, given how OKW has no other means for that.

That's totally fine as a matter of timing to unlock the FRP. Just that i don't think you need to put such a high cost on it nor have it split at all. Maybe it's more problematic on 3v3+ due to map size that u might consider a higher cost for it.

That would delay Obersoldaten again. Splitting up the tech-cost, was because Obers came too late.

Nobody is ever building Obersoldaten before purchasing Panzer Authorization