Zis Barrage need longer cooldown

calc yourself the options to get an AT gun and indirekt huge range teamwiper for OKW / ost ...and than for sov.

Ok.
Calc yourself the options to get rocket arty of soviets vs okw.
Calc yourself the options to get a mortar and AA HT for soviets vs OKW.
Calc yourself the options to get HMG and sniper for soviets vs ost.
Calc yourself the options to get reinforcement halftrucks for sov vs ost.
Calc yourself the options to get weapon upgrades for mainline inf for sov vs axis.

Calc yourself a brain and beat into it that factions have different techs and different unit combinations available cheaply compared to a completely different faction.

i bet both would need minimum double of the costs from sov. sov could from the start into zis in under 1min. and have now the double function from it.

And guess what?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, never have been for past 7 years and nothing will change here.
Go ahead, do exactly that, see how long the game will last.
Build ZiS as your first unit and tell us how well it went.

ost and okw need minimum 4 min for both options. And a tone of ressources

And again, there is completely nothing wrong with that, because
1) No one sane rushes ZiS and the only early ATG to get that makes sense is puppchen for its retreat capability and insta countering of allied ultra lights.
2) Factions have different benefits and units within their techs.

Yep, but most sovs units excels in both roles.

Which of them exactly?
Because ZiS is worst ATG in game in terms of actual AT kill times(assuming there is muni to feed USF one), SU-76 is excelling to the point where no one ever gets it.
ISU excels exclusively in AI and its AT DPM is lower even then that of SU-76.
Guards hardly excel at anything, they are just supplemental in both roles.
T-70 scouting/sight providing role was butchered long time ago.

zis barrage was ok, when back in the days the AT power was crap and cost for barrage was double the costs than now..

ZiS has unchanged AT power since release and barrage effectiveness went down significantly.

but since it is nearly in line with other AT guns, same cost, 6models, and barrage cst less than some grenades...its to good

Then play soviets.

Ok.
Calc yourself the options to get rocket arty of soviets vs okw.
Calc yourself the options to get a mortar and AA HT for soviets vs OKW.
Calc yourself the options to get HMG and sniper for soviets vs ost.
Calc yourself the options to get reinforcement halftrucks for sov vs ost.
Calc yourself the options to get weapon upgrades for mainline inf for sov vs axis.

Calc yourself a brain and beat into it that factions have different techs and different unit combinations available cheaply compared to a completely different faction.


And guess what?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, never have been for past 7 years and nothing will change here.
Go ahead, do exactly that, see how long the game will last.
Build ZiS as your first unit and tell us how well it went.


And again, there is completely nothing wrong with that, because
1) No one sane rushes ZiS and the only early ATG to get that makes sense is puppchen for its retreat capability and insta countering of allied ultra lights.
2) Factions have different benefits and units within their techs.

'


i like, how u never answer question....you always come in with personals attacks and other irrelevant new topics. Its easy to see: on lane maps you get t2 as sov and spam maxims into zis. nothing more is needed to bully OKW and even ost struggle hard vs this in team games, since u are obliterated by the barrages every time you setup a MG

ZiS has unchanged AT power since release and barrage effectiveness went down significantly.

what a big fat lie...and you even know it.

'


i like, how u never answer question....you always come in with personals attacks and other irrelevant new topics. Its easy to see: on lane maps you get t2 as sov and spam maxims into zis. nothing more is needed to bully OKW and even ost struggle hard vs this in team games, since u are obliterated by the barrages every time you setup a MG

That's ironic, given the fact you have completely dodged answering to the post you've quoted there.

You don't understand how the game and factions work.
You will always have "balance" problems that are located between chair and keyboard.

Also, it was already said, if you face weapon team spam as OKW, build stuka and delete everything, as ost, build a mortar or two and delete everything.

You don't understand how counterplay works, you refuse to build correct units in response to what opponent does and everything always will look like "balance problem" to you as long as all you do is blobbing mainline inf into AoE and suppression weapons.

You should be living in strategy section, begging people with a clue for help, not in balance one, projecting your personal skill issues onto balance.

Which of them exactly?
Because ZiS is worst ATG in game in terms of actual AT kill times(assuming there is muni to feed USF one), SU-76 is excelling to the point where no one ever gets it.
ISU excels exclusively in AI and its AT DPM is lower even then that of SU-76.
Guards hardly excel at anything, they are just supplemental in both roles.
T-70 scouting/sight providing role was butchered long time ago.

ZiS has unchanged AT power since release and barrage effectiveness went down significantly.

Then play soviets.

OK, lets play with your cards:

ZIS can keep at bay and Pen any tank, even at long range + the barrage + 6men. As an AT gun, is more than ok (inferior than its axis counterparts, but even good).

SU76 has more range and Pen than the StugG + barrage + almost same cost as stug.

ISU is a very long range Brummbar + can pen medium tanks and other TD.

T70 is a wiping machine since day 1 + scout + good at hunting halftracks.

And I not even mention the T34/85 (its a OKW P4 on steroids).

what a big fat lie...and you even know it.

April 24th, 2014
-both ATGs got equal buff, in fact, PaK got greater one
December 19th, 2017
-Barrage nerf and cost decrease
September 2019
-Further barrage adjustments, decreasing OHK potential, increasing reliability to do any damage
April 10, 2020
-Decrease of effectiveness of barrage vs heavy cover


No other changes to its firepower and barrage.
You were never supposed to facetank whole barrage.
Go eat a bratwurst.

OK, lets play with your cards:

ZIS can keep at bay and Pen any tank, even at long range + the barrage + 6men. As an AT gun, is more than ok (inferior than its axis counterparts, but even good).

No one said its not ok.
Being worst at AT doesn't mean being bad at AT.
What's the point of naming faction traits again?

SU76 has more range and Pen than the StugG + barrage + almost same cost as stug.

StuG has double the armor, can actually deflect all stock medium tanks, got more health, got vet ability that is actually useful in combat and, contrary to SU-76, StuG is actual and functional and cost effective hardcounter to med tank spam, INCLUDING all premium meds.

ISU is a very long range Brummbar + can pen medium tanks and other TD.

Brummbar arrives much earlier, isn't limited to 1, got perfect accuracy vs ISUs largest scatter values in game, isn't doctrinal, allows you to have an elephant behind it, so you have exceptional AI and AT power on field at the same time WHILE also keeping ISU away.

T70 is a wiping machine since day 1 + scout + good at hunting halftracks.

Soviets early-mid game infantry play is non existent.

And I not even mention the T34/85 (its a OKW P4 on steroids).

Then better don't mention it and save yourself a flop, because its 3 years at least since it isn't unit used in meta.

No one said its not ok.
Being worst at AT doesn't mean being bad at AT.
What's the point of naming faction traits again?

We are discusing the multi role of SOV units. So, ZIS was just a reminder for you as a unit that is good in multi roles: good At gun + barrage + 6men in a single unit.

StuG has double the armor, can actually deflect all stock medium tanks, got more health, got vet ability that is actually useful in combat and, contrary to SU-76, StuG is actual and functional and cost effective hardcounter to med tank spam, INCLUDING all premium meds.

SU76 keeps being good as an AT and AI option (multi role). Dont know why noone use it. Maybe because T70 is more usefull.

Brummbar arrives much earlier, isn't limited to 1, got perfect accuracy vs ISUs largest scatter values in game, isn't doctrinal, allows you to have an elephant behind it, so you have exceptional AI and AT power on field at the same time WHILE also keeping ISU away.

See, you are saying it. Axis needs 2 units (Ele+Brumm) to make the same job as 1 sov (ISU). Again, the multi role of Sovs units is way too good.

Soviets early-mid game infantry play is non existent.

Thats your opinion.

Then better don't mention it and save yourself a flop, because its 3 years at least since it isn't unit used in meta.

T34/85 is still a very good (if not the best) premium medium tank.

April 24th, 2014
-both ATGs got equal buff, in fact, PaK got greater one
December 19th, 2017
-Barrage nerf and cost decrease

Number of shell 6 for 60 mu (10 per shot)
Number of shell 4 for 35 mu (8.75 per shot)

this is overall of buff since in most cases 6 shell where not need and even if they are need one can use 2 barrages instead and have 2 extra shell for 10 mu.

September 2019
-Further barrage adjustments, decreasing OHK potential, increasing reliability to do any damage

"ZiS-3 and SU-76 76mm HE Barrage

The barrage ability on the ZiS-3 and SU-76 has been changed to have reduced raw killing power and deal more reliable health damage instead.

HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.125 to 1/0.375/0.125
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0/3/5"
This is a major buff with more than doubling mid damage and increasing the far aoe.
The change to near AOE distance would bring the uni in line with mortar but it still does full damage of 80 instead of 68 for the PM-41.

April 10, 2020
-Decrease of effectiveness of barrage vs heavy cover

this speaks for it self:

"ZiS-3/SU-76 Barrage
This change puts the barrage from ZiS-3 weapons inline with other direct-fire weapons and mortars that receive penalties when striking units in heavy cover.
Heavy cover damage modifier from 1 to 0.5"

No other changes to its firepower and barrage.
You were never supposed to facetank whole barrage.
Go eat a bratwurst.

Most point are false Zis barrage is far superior to what it used to be and it is cheaper. That is why the ability went from almost never used to, to frequently used.

u miss something.

to get a a huge range wiper and at gun, sov need only one unit.

ost/ OKW need for the same thing 2 units, which is way more expansive.
technically sov has even a manpower advantage over ost or OKW.

The barrage is not a garanteed wiping ability, esp at long range. It does so on rare occasions on units who are already low on hp or unlucky to move into the follow up shells.
Grenades are far more consistant in wiping, but dont have the range. Nothing wrong with either.

When the zis is firing arty its not firing at tanks, a weakness of multyrole units. An extra moment you can catch it of guard. Its at has been buffed buts its still not as good as other atguns in raw at power.

The barrage is not a garanteed wiping ability, esp at long range. It does so on rare occasions on units who are already low on hp or unlucky to move into the follow up shells.
Grenades are far more consistant in wiping, but dont have the range. Nothing wrong with either.

When the zis is firing arty its not firing at tanks, a weakness of multyrole units. An extra moment you can catch it of guard. Its at has been buffed buts its still not as good as other atguns in raw at power.

The grenades/barrage analogy is simply off mark, I will not even bother explaining why.

The barrage is not a garanteed wiping ability, esp at long range. It does so on rare occasions on units who are already low on hp or unlucky to move into the follow up shells.
Grenades are far more consistant in wiping, but dont have the range. Nothing wrong with either.

The ZiS barrage is almost a guaranteed retreat for most HMG, ATG or indirect fire like mortars, taking in consideration that its firing always 4men squads.

When the zis is firing arty its not firing at tanks, a weakness of multyrole units. An extra moment you can catch it of guard. Its at has been buffed buts its still not as good as other atguns in raw at power.

This is true.

This is true.

but even that is no problem, since zis can shot from 80/85 range and when its not alone, you can see when a tank is coming and all your wastet are only 30mun.

SU76 has more range and Pen than the StugG + barrage + almost same cost as stug.

the stug has more penetration... also the stug also outclasses the SU-76 in terms of DPS and HP... the stug is the superior unit to the SU-76 by a longshot

HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.125 to 1/0.375/0.125
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0/3/5"
This is a major buff with more than doubling mid damage and increasing the far aoe.
The change to near AOE distance would bring the uni in line with mortar but it still does full damage of 80 instead of 68 for the PM-41.

That's not how it works. When you have 80dmg unit with 0 in near distance, only on a direct collision hit, they will do 80 dmg. It's basically the same principle with mortars though the change is applied differently (IIRC the mortar has a dmg modifier lesser than 1 instead of having the distance near set at 0). You can check serealia list it as having 0HK radius as 0.

To describe the damage between current Zis, mortar and previous Zis it would look like this:

-Old: Deals full 80dmg till 1.5. Then drops harshly from 1.5 to 3.0 dealing 12 dmg and so on. Middle point of 2.25 would be doing 46dmg. At 2.625, 29.

-New: It goes from 80 on direct hit (will only apply to structure/vehicles) and linearly drops down to 30 up to range 3. Yeah it basically deals 79dmg if it lands right on the foot of a soldier. It deals 55dmg at 1.5 and from there it drops to 30 dmg to 3.0 range. At 2.25 it would be doing 42.5. At 2.625, 36.25dmg.

-Mortar: direct hit 80 but it starst at 68dmg which goes linear till 1 range. From there it drops down to 40 dmg till range 2.

Its at has been buffed buts its still not as good as other atguns in raw at power.

Please, stop bringing this non-sence. ZiS has ~1 second slower reload then PaK, this is the single difference in AT perfomance. They are litteraly identical in everything else.

Will you sacrifice 1 second for 6 men crew and AI barrage? I guess its a good trade off dont you think?

Please, stop bringing this non-sence. ZiS has ~1 second slower reload then PaK, this is the single difference in AT perfomance. They are litteraly identical in everything else.

i think the zis has lower penetration than the pak40 aswell but im not confident enough to put stakes on it...

i think the zis has lower penetration than the pak40 aswell but im not confident enough to put stakes on it...

No, it has identical penetration. You might think so, because some of axis units have more armor, meaning that it might sometimes feel like it has lower penetration.

No, it has identical penetration. You might think so, because some of axis units have more armor, meaning that it might sometimes feel like it has lower penetration.

ahh no it doesnt actually... just checked
ZIS3
Penetration near
200
Penetration mid
190
Penetration far
180

PAK 40
Penetration near
210
Penetration mid
200
Penetration far
190



now honestly i think the zis does need a nerf but barrage should be something the ZIS should do... i recommend nerfing the price and pop cost of the ZIS so that double zis is no longer punishing in 1v1s...


of course all changes need to be preceeded by a rework or a buff for conscripts penals maxim and T-34 and a nerf for the T-70

Please, stop bringing this non-sence. ZiS has ~1 second slower reload then PaK, this is the single difference in AT perfomance. They are litteraly identical in everything else.

Just for completion sake, the difference is 0.63 + 0.5 (winds). +2 in rotation (recent change) and +10 pen across the board.
Vet abilities are obviously different but interesting enough, for some reason Zis has better vet at vet 3 (they are equal at vet 2) with +10% in reload.