Hello,
Zis is an AT gun. But since the barrage has nearly no cooldown, compared to other barrage timers, it work on lane map as a much better wiper, than an ost mortar barrage.
The shells come to fast, are deadly and its to cheap for what it gives.
It can have the barrage, but not any time you want, even some sec. after the last barrage.
want to play as OKW against sov t2? have fun, when you can't use squads, since OKW lack anti MG mechanic and cant dive in with lv, since 2 at guns waiting. Even ost is struggling vs this zisbarrage
Zis Barrage need longer cooldown
26 Oct 2020, 07:20 AM
#1
Posts: 2243
26 Oct 2020, 07:53 AM
#2
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
ZiS barrage costs muni.
Soviets do not have infinite muni.
Also, its not a gimmicky vet1 ability, like in case of JT, its secondary role of the unit.
You can touch barrage when cons or penals will receive regular nades, because that is the function ZiS barrage has.
Also, barrage was nerfed in effectiveness of instakills, if you have not reacted to it in time, its not balance problem, its a you problem.
Soviets do not have infinite muni.
Also, its not a gimmicky vet1 ability, like in case of JT, its secondary role of the unit.
You can touch barrage when cons or penals will receive regular nades, because that is the function ZiS barrage has.
Also, barrage was nerfed in effectiveness of instakills, if you have not reacted to it in time, its not balance problem, its a you problem.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Oct 2020, 08:02 AM
#3
Posts: 1979
for the sake of balance it may be appropriate to make the core soviet army playable before we consider stuff like zis or T-70 nerfs...
26 Oct 2020, 08:20 AM
#4
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
You do have rocket arty in OKW Mechanized for when you are facing Soviet T2 heavy play in lane team maps.
Alternatively, you can exploit the fact that the Soviet is playing static T2 by double teaming the other side of the map. This latter sort of counter is however ignored by a lot of players who insist on playing big team games as micro 1v1/2v2s intead of playing like an actual 3 or 4 man team to counter certain strategies.
Alternatively, you can exploit the fact that the Soviet is playing static T2 by double teaming the other side of the map. This latter sort of counter is however ignored by a lot of players who insist on playing big team games as micro 1v1/2v2s intead of playing like an actual 3 or 4 man team to counter certain strategies.
26 Oct 2020, 08:45 AM
#5
Posts: 2243
ZiS barrage costs muni.
Soviets do not have infinite muni.
Also, its not a gimmicky vet1 ability, like in case of JT, its secondary role of the unit.
You can touch barrage when cons or penals will receive regular nades, because that is the function ZiS barrage has.
Also, barrage was nerfed in effectiveness of instakills, if you have not reacted to it in time, its not balance problem, its a you problem.
There is a huge advantage to "throw a grenade" over range 60. Even grenades have longer cd...and cost more. and need to get in close range (20)
why it need such low cooldown? it isnt needed. its only for the loloo...i can deal every 15sec with all of your squads and team weapons memes
26 Oct 2020, 08:58 AM
#6
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
There is a huge advantage to "throw a grenade" over range 60. ..
Barrage has 80 range and get up to 85 at vet 3
26 Oct 2020, 09:00 AM
#7
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
There is a huge advantage to "throw a grenade" over range 60.
You can "throw a grenade" over range 60 OR you can land it where you want it too.
You can't have both.
Even grenades have longer cd...and cost more. and need to get in close range (20)
Last I check, you don't run around with 4-6 ZiS guns around.
Which is the case of mainline generalist inf.
Also, you aware of rifle nades?
why it need such low cooldown? it isnt needed. its only for the loloo...i can deal every 15sec with all of your squads and team weapons memesx
Because its NOT extra ability on a random unit.
Its SECONDARY ROLE of the unit, light artillery.
Compare ZiS barrage cd with mortar barrage cd, because that's what its supposed to be.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Oct 2020, 09:31 AM
#8
Posts: 2243
You can "throw a grenade" over range 60 OR you can land it where you want it too.
You can't have both.
Last I check, you don't run around with 4-6 ZiS guns around.
Which is the case of mainline generalist inf.
Also, you aware of rifle nades?
Because its NOT extra ability on a random unit.
Its SECONDARY ROLE of the unit, light artillery.
Compare ZiS barrage cd with mortar barrage cd, because that's what its supposed to be.
but...ost mortar barrage has longer cd...and its only rolle...never seen than a moratr has an AT modus.
26 Oct 2020, 09:39 AM
#9
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
but...ost mortar barrage has longer cd...and its only rolle...never seen than a moratr has an AT modus.
Is mortar a dual role unit?
Does mortar pay muni each time it barrages?
Is there a point you won't completely miss?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Oct 2020, 09:40 AM
#10
Posts: 1289
but...ost mortar barrage has longer cd...and its only rolle...never seen than a moratr has an AT modus.
The ost mortar is only 240 mp. Shoots over shot blockers easier. can retreat.
Why compare the 2?
Zis barrage is fine. Usualy a player only gets 2. Thats 2 to 4 less then mainline/elite combis that all throw nades. The things soviets lack obviously outside the zis/su76 barrages.
26 Oct 2020, 09:44 AM
#11
Posts: 282
Zis gun shot like the Stug E but with better AOE profile, no friendly fire, and with a rate of fire 3 times faster (and with 80 range against 50), so for an early unit, there might be a problem.
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26 Oct 2020, 10:20 AM
#12
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
AOE at ranges 0/1/2/3/4/5/6
PM-41 68/68/56/20/0/-/-
Zis 80/64/47/30/20/10/0
Note that zis barrage is superior from AOE 3 and with 2 units distance more AOE and one of the few weapon that can still 1 shot models in ranges up to 1.
PM-41 68/68/56/20/0/-/-
Zis 80/64/47/30/20/10/0
Note that zis barrage is superior from AOE 3 and with 2 units distance more AOE and one of the few weapon that can still 1 shot models in ranges up to 1.
26 Oct 2020, 10:25 AM
#13
Posts: 195
Zis gun shot like the Stug E but with better AOE profile, no friendly fire, and with a rate of fire 3 times faster (and with 80 range against 50), so for an early unit, there might be a problem.
Does the Stug E have any redeeming qualities, really? Whenever I glance at Mechanized Assault (the original Assault Grenadier doctrine), I feel disappointed by this thing. If anything, it should be equivalent to the ZiS Gun in its barrage and according to the stats posted above it does less for dramatically more.
26 Oct 2020, 10:28 AM
#14
Posts: 2243
The ost mortar is only 240 mp. Shoots over shot blockers easier. can retreat.
Why compare the 2?
Zis barrage is fine. Usualy a player only gets 2. Thats 2 to 4 less then mainline/elite combis that all throw nades. The things soviets lack obviously outside the zis/su76 barrages.
u miss something.
to get a a huge range wiper and at gun, sov need only one unit.
ost/ OKW need for the same thing 2 units, which is way more expansive.
technically sov has even a manpower advantage over ost or OKW.
26 Oct 2020, 10:36 AM
#15
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
u miss something.
to get a a huge range wiper and at gun, sov need only one unit.
You miss something.
Soviet faction theme are 6 man squads and dual role units.
ost/ OKW need for the same thing 2 units, which is way more expansive.
Because their themes are specialist units.
technically sov has even a manpower advantage over ost or OKW.
How?
Soviets take most attrition in early-mid game out of all factions due to no weapon upgrade from 3rd-4th minute onwards.
Can you prove that mathematically?
Or we just plain ignore the fact that both axis factions get extra mp at start?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Oct 2020, 11:01 AM
#16
Posts: 2243
You miss something.
Soviet faction theme are 6 man squads and dual role units.
Because their themes are specialist units.
How?
Soviets take most attrition in early-mid game out of all factions due to no weapon upgrade from 3rd-4th minute onwards.
Can you prove that mathematically?
Or we just plain ignore the fact that both axis factions get extra mp at start?
calc yourself the options to get an AT gun and indirekt huge range teamwiper for OKW / ost ...and than for sov.
i bet both would need minimum double of the costs from sov. sov could from the start into zis in under 1min. and have now the double function from it.
ost and okw need minimum 4 min for both options. And a tone of ressources
26 Oct 2020, 11:08 AM
#17
Posts: 311
First of all, ZIS barrage should not even be in the game in the first place. ZIS should be a purely AT gun. No other AT gun in the game have AI options + 6men + green cover + same cost as other AT.
Its true that barrage cooldown is too quick + long range + do not hit obstacles + insane DMG + very low MU cost.
Its true that barrage cooldown is too quick + long range + do not hit obstacles + insane DMG + very low MU cost.
26 Oct 2020, 11:11 AM
#18
Posts: 311
You miss something.
Soviet faction theme are 6 man squads and dual role units.
Yep, but most sovs units excels in both roles.
26 Oct 2020, 11:14 AM
#19
Posts: 282
Does the Stug E have any redeeming qualities, really? Whenever I glance at Mechanized Assault (the original Assault Grenadier doctrine), I feel disappointed by this thing. If anything, it should be equivalent to the ZiS Gun in its barrage and according to the stats posted above it does less for dramatically more.
StugE is not the main topic but you're right, but I believe that it is the Zis gun which is overperforming for a secondary role.
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26 Oct 2020, 11:14 AM
#20
Posts: 2243
zis barrage was ok, when back in the days the AT power was crap and cost for barrage was double the costs than now..
but since it is nearly in line with other AT guns, same cost, 6models, and barrage cst less than some grenades...its to good
but since it is nearly in line with other AT guns, same cost, 6models, and barrage cst less than some grenades...its to good
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