So...my Tiger kept bouncing against a KV-1

Yes, it will, that goes without a question.
But its firepower is not the reason why.
I find it hilarious you can't see it, so let me draw you a clearer picture:
It got the same firepower as T34/76.
If T34 does not have enough firepower to beat P4, neither does another unit with EXACT SAME GUN, so the reason for different outcome is CLEARLY NOT FIREPOWER, like... there is maybe some difference between KV-1 and 34/76 that is not firepower?

Check your excel sheets, maybe you'll find hints on actual reason why one of these tanks almost always loses and other almost always wins despite having the exact same firepower on both.

I am not sure what you are arguing about. Vipper said it is sufficient to win if the P4 decides to slug it out, there's nothing wrong about it. He did not say it is due to a great gun or whatever, he said it is sufficient to pen the P4 often enough to win the engagement. You're just trying to pick a fight, but this is a quite pointless one.

Also you should check an excel sheet yourself once in a while. You now twice stated (even in capital letters for further mockery) that the KV1 has exactly the same gun as the T34 which is not even correct.

One of the problems with the KV-1 (as many other units) is that it get the complete wrong vet bonuses:
Vet1
Unlocks the "Hull Down" ability.
Vet 2
+35% weapon rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.
Vet 3
+20% reload speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+20% maximum speed.

It durability should simply be move to its veterancy since vet bonuses should help the unit in its role.

The Vet1 fits pretty perfectly.
Moving it's durability to veterancy would require a complete rework of the unit including pricing. Soviets already have a lot of squishy tanks, adding yet another one that just gets beefier over time does not add too much to the faction. The general design of the KV1 is good, it just needs a couple of adjustments in my opinion. I find it slightly too durable for what you pay for, especially combined with a SU85.

Vet often improves the role or irons out some weaknesses (like StuG side skirts), but in this case I would say the KV1 should not get any beefier or Axis would have real issues for a relatively cheap tank. I think the reload speed veterancy is not that bad and mainly improves the role as infantry support due to the bad penetration.
Yes, maybe there could be a bit better vet, but overall it's not completely wrong.

Can we get another thread "My Jackson kept bouncing Elefant and Jagdtiger" or "My SU85 kept bouncing Panther" or "My T70 kept bouncing OST P4"?

you miss the relative cost to performance.
A tiger is much more expansive than a KV1. KV1 is for its cost to durable. All agree here to this fact.

A jackson cost the half of a Jagtiger, but is muuuuuch faster, has turret, has selfrepair and muuuuuch more mobilty. When you are to lazy to use HVAP shells from Jackson to penetrate a Jagdtiger very often...its a learn2play issue.
a t70 is a lv which comes early to hunt other lv and squads.. and not a medium hunter.

...
Yes, maybe there could be a bit better vet, but overall it's not completely wrong.

The vet ability does fit role of the unit.

Suggestion is to lose some of its base durability so that it allow time for the opponent to get enough AT and gain the same durability or even more via veterancy.

A "heavy infatry Tank" like the KV-1 does not need speed or rotation

A speed of 6.1 and rotation of 36 is simply not needed and go against the "design" of the unit.

A PzIV for instance has a speed of 6.2 and a rotation of 38.4 at vet 3 for comparison while even a Panther has a speed of 6.6 and a rotation of 36.

Wait until the soviet player equips both armor bulletins for the KV-1, at that point it's about as survivable as a Tiger, except it's up against Stugs and JP4's instead of SU85's and Jacksons.

Wait until the soviet player equips both armor bulletins for the KV-1, at that point it's about as survivable as a Tiger, except it's up against Stugs and JP4's instead of SU85's and Jacksons.

Lol that is so true, it get 290 armor vs 300 of a Tiger and needs same amount of shots

Wait until the soviet player equips both armor bulletins for the KV-1, at that point it's about as survivable as a Tiger, except it's up against Stugs and JP4's instead of SU85's and Jacksons.

Even with 290 armor, the ROF advantage of the JP4 and StuG compensates for the lack of penetration. Theoretical TTK against a 290 armor KV-1 is roughly the same as the TTK of an SU-85 against a Tiger and lower than the Jackson's TTK. Even at vet 3 (when SU-85/Jackson get nearly 100% pen chance) the difference is only marginal.

Even with 290 armor, the ROF advantage of the JP4 and StuG compensates for the lack of penetration. Theoretical TTK against a 290 armor KV-1 is roughly the same as the TTK of an SU-85 against a Tiger and lower than the Jackson's TTK. Even at vet 3 (when SU-85/Jackson get nearly 100% pen chance) the difference is only marginal.

Hey mate I am curious how is the TTK calculated. Is it (hp/shot dmg)*ROF/(pen chance) ?

Hey mate I am curious how is the TTK calculated. Is it (hp/shot dmg)*ROF/(pen chance) ?

basically yes, but you have to round up the HP/shot part.

Most representative would be a distribution curve though.

[...]

Also you should check an excel sheet yourself once in a while. You now twice stated (even in capital letters for further mockery) that the KV1 has exactly the same gun as the T34 which is not even correct.

[...]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only difference between them a marginally better reload speed of KV-1?

One guy has bad luck in a match and suddenly KV1 OP (just like the thread a couple of months ago). Using KV1 as anything but a bullet sponge is "good luck with that". Can it survive? Yes. Is it a T4 heavy doctrinal tank? Also yes. Is it AT medium+ capable? No. Is it a good tank? Yes. As axis, you can have all tanks except OST P4 and Stug near it and not have to worry about it at all. If you're fielding a Tiger and you come across the enemy KV1 combined arms and you decide to focus KV1 first, next to conscripts or ZiS or whatever, then it's your L2P problem.

KV1 has 270 armour, 10 more than a Panther (stock), piss-poor AT and movement, quite good vs light vehicles and infantry. It's got high rear armour. And how can you even compare it's rear armour to that of Elefant that has 400 frontal armour or 450 of Jagdtiger. Ofc those tanks will have low rear armour since they are pretty much impenetrable from the front.
Tiger is 300/140, a bit more than KV1, also doctrinal, more expensive but also MUCH better at AI, AT, ROF, fear factor, etc.

This thread, like 80% of others, is a nonsensical rant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only difference between them a marginally better reload speed of KV-1?

https://coh2.serealia.ca/#112

It's all here. Pretty much the same gun out of the workshop with a ~0.6 better reload speed.
Same accuracy, same penetration, same damage. I think that historically, KV1 did have a T34/76 gun.
At least wiki says so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliment_Voroshilov_tank

.. Is it AT medium+ capable? No..

I suggest you test KV-1 vs PzIV and see which ones wins most of the times.

basically yes, but you have to round up the HP/shot part.

Most representative would be a distribution curve though.

What do u mean by distribution curve? Since we have the probability of pene already in already in pene/armor.

What do u mean by distribution curve? Since we have the probability of pene already in already in pene/armor.

In order for a shot to do damage it needs to "hit" and penetrate.

It can hit via a "natural" hit, via collision or even via AOE.

Then it has to check if it going to penetrate or not.

snip

You are the dude that said shrek pgrens in yellow cover and p4 flanks counter a KV1... maybe try to deal with a 15min KV1 before you make more useless posts

I suggest you test KV-1 vs PzIV and see which ones wins most of the times.

I'm hoping you are not as dense as this post made you out to be. Of course KV1 will win but it's not by the virtue of having a great AT gun, it's because it's so spongy that the low penetration it has will still statistically net him the win, almost always. Probably 99% of time. But on the field, you're not going vs a solo unsupported OKW or OST P4 are you? You can debate and contemplate all you want with those quasi intellectual "this unit is OP or UP" while putting them in made up scenarios which most of the time will fit your narrative. Put a KV1 in a typical 2v2,3v3,4v4 game, it's pretty well balanced. Sure, KV1 and OKW P4 will shoot at each other for centuries and KV1 will come out on top if by some miracle, they are the only 2 units on the field. In 1v1, KV1 is probably on a stronger side of the scale, being a tanky tank that can tank. You'll usually come across 1 or 2 mediums or premium medium (Panther). Point is, in 1v1 the population you'll be going against is 2x lower on average than the 2v2, 3x in 3v3 etc. Not as many Raketens, Panzergren Shrecks, Paks and Stugs (or just get JP4 or Stug, they both have enough AT power to scare away KV1...Pak and raketen as well)

Point being, in an average Joe's game, KV1 is not your top priority in an engagement if you are fielding OKW P4 or anything heavier. The 100 penetration on medium range will net about 40% of penetrations. Even if no shot misses from the KV1, that's still enough time to win an engagement. If KV1 decides to focus your tank, same can be said about him, Learn to gauge the field conditions.
So until Panther comes along, KV1 is a nasty tank (also doctrinal) to throw infantry against but also with a bit of a strategy, it's existence can be neutered. Better players than me did it against me, but then again, I'm not much of a Soviet player.
Once Panther comes along, KV1 is just a veterancy buildup for Panther (or JP4 or Stug).
Manage to cripple KV1 and, unless it's really really lucky, it's a goner.

You are the dude that said shrek pgrens in yellow cover and p4 flanks counter a KV1... maybe try to deal with a 15min KV1 before you make more useless posts

In average battlefield conditions, yes. If you throw them solo at it, good luck. You can quote me as much as you want just assume that I'm using "average BF conditions" as a prerequisite. I don't do 1v1 on empty field discussions.

How much damage was it dealing to your tiger?

Even with 290 armor, the ROF advantage of the JP4 and StuG compensates for the lack of penetration. Theoretical TTK against a 290 armor KV-1 is roughly the same as the TTK of an SU-85 against a Tiger and lower than the Jackson's TTK. Even at vet 3 (when SU-85/Jackson get nearly 100% pen chance) the difference is only marginal.

The Su-85 is definitely ahead of the pack, all the other tank destroyers are quite similar in performance (not taking into account accuracy, cause scatter hits are difficult to include):

Unvetted - best to worst
Vet 0 SU85
7/(220/300)*5.65 = 53.93

Vet 0 JP4
7/(170/289)*5 = 59.5

Vet 0 Stug
7/(170/289)*5.25 = 62.48

Vet 0 Jackson
7/(220/300)*6.55 = 62.5

Vetted - best to worst
Vet 3 SU85
7/(286/300)*4.75 = 34.88

Vet 3 Jackson
7/(286/300)*5.054 = 37.1

Vet 3 Stug
7/(170/289)*3.4 = 40.46

Vet 5 JP4
7/(170/289)*3.523 = 41.92

What mainly benefits Allied tank destroyers is that they're more reliable when taking potshots. Most tank fights aren't a stand-off, but taking one shot to scare the opponent's tank away, which especially vetted Allied tank destroyers are good at because of their penetration. The flipside is that Axis TD's are more effective at taking on mediums, where penetration doesn't matter, but reload speed does.

The SU85 has focused sight, The Jackson has the highest mobility and a turret, the Stug has low cost but lacks range and the JP4 has good armor and vet 2 HP. I'd say focused sight and high mobility are the more useful attributes when fighting against heavy armor.

Anyway, it's closer than I thought, so let me revise my previous post to something more constructive: the KV1 with 2 armor bulletins is a good deal for Tiger durability at comparitively low cost, especially cause the SU-85 can make up for the lack of AT the KV-1 has.

I'm hoping you are not as dense as this post made you out to be...

I'm hoping you are not as dense as this post made you out to be.

Is the KV-1 able to Kill all Axis mediums tanks, including the premium mediums like the PzIV J?
yes KV-1 has chance to win even if it is flanked.

Then your sentence:
"Is it AT medium+ capable? No"

is simply wrong.

Even if you want to talk about being supported the KV-1 is simply superior to the PzIV since it can take allot more punishment while its supporting units can dish out the damage.