Why Soviets are OP

T-70 is OP most people agree with that and

even without the T-70 the SU-76 just isnt that good of an AT unit on its own as the zis to SU-85 is self sufficient against armored threats...

imo SU-85 is OP also.

no it absolutely isnt... its just the counter to big heavy axis tanks from deleting everything thats why it seems like its OP... if you nerf the allied heavy TDs then the allies have absolutely 0 counters to axis heavy tanks... and the game will turn into a hodgepodge of axis only games

Once more fixing the angle of the gun will not suddenly make SU-76 extremely popular. The unit is cost efficient.

the unit is not cost efficient thats why it isnt popular

id like to see the t70 toned down a bit and the su76 to get some upgrade or something at t4 to get it over the hump since late game its barrage often isnt enough to warrant its micro or pop cap given its durability.
su76M upgrade (i know the model in game already is the su76M but i wont tell if you dont) turns the gun into a zis clone, maybe 80 more health? make it cost fuel and manpower. gives it a bit of scaling it sorely lacks

this idea is actually really good... the SU-76 loses value during the lategame pretty fast... this change could actually make it alot more useful

even without the T-70 the SU-76 just isnt that good of an AT unit on its own as the zis to SU-85 is self sufficient against armored threats...

The SU-76 is a good AT and is effective At when build in numbers with additional utility of barrage

no it absolutely isnt... its just the counter to big heavy axis tanks from deleting everything thats why it seems like its OP... if you nerf the allied heavy TDs then the allies have absolutely 0 counters to axis heavy tanks... and the game will turn into a hodgepodge of axis only games

The SU-85 has one of the best guns in game with good accuracy good ROF and good penetration, selfspoting and broken reckon when tracking is combined with focus sight, lower XP value than cost and great Vet bonuses. It is OP.

Should it be good vs Super heavies? yes
Should it be good vs both Super heavies and PzIV? no

the unit is not cost efficient thats why it isnt popular

Yet you have found minor problem with that stats of the unit...

Give it to the UKF or OKW or even ostheer and see how cost efficient it actually is.

The SU-76 is a good AT and is effective At when build in numbers with additional utility of barrage

but loses any sort of lategame scaling and is extremely squishy... it also isnt put on high regard by many players and is rarely if ever used

The SU-85 has one of the best guns in game with good accuracy good ROF and good penetration, selfspoting and broken reckon when tracking is combined with focus sight, lower XP value than cost and great Vet bonuses. It is OP.

Should it be good vs Super heavies? yes
Should it be good vs both Super heavies and PzIV? no

should it be good against superheavies and panzer 4? yeah sure... its a turretless slow tank destroyer that is more expensive than a panzer 4 yet slower and is specialized against armor...

the SU-85 actually fares worse against an ost player fielding panzer 4`s than it does against an ost player fielding panthers... the SU-85 is too slow to catch the panzer 4 and the panzer 4 can still punish infantry on the flanks and abuse the fact that the soviet infantry isnt exactly top dog...

the only OP heavy tank destroyer around these parts is the main battle jackson which is turreted fast while having HVAP on top of its slightly lower DPS but still really good gun...

Yet you have found minor problem with that stats of the unit...

Give it to the UKF or OKW and see how cost efficient it actually is.

yeah the squishyness and the relatively low DPS of the SU-76 are "minor stats" in your opinion... but that is not an opinion shared by alot of players who think the SU-76 needs more scaling...

The SU-76 is a good AT and is effective At when build in numbers with additional utility of barrage

Everything is effective when spammed and you don't apply correct counter fast enough(CE flamer spam vs OKW 1v1 anyone?).
But in this case, you're paying 70 fuel for more mobile, less effective ZiS.
Puma costs just as much, arrives earlier, self spots without vet or constant muni expenditure, has self defense mechanic, has turret, can actually chase low health tanks and has a chance to escape them.

So yeah, there is same role package(light vehicle TD to engage lvs and meds) with much more utility then barrage.

The SU-85 has one of the best guns in game with good accuracy good ROF and good penetration, selfspoting and broken reckon when tracking is combined with focus sight, lower XP value than cost and great Vet bonuses. It is OP.

It has no turret, therefore it is bad.
This is what everyone says about StuG3 and JP4, so it must be unquestionable true regardless of other traits.

Should it be good vs Super heavies? yes
Should it be good vs both Super heavies and PzIV? no

And how do you imagine that should be achieved?
You can't lower nerf, because it won't be effective vs heavies.
Same with accuracy.
If you nerf RoF, heavies will be able to push through and it'll appear in pairs, invalidating P4s just as much.
Cost is already very high compared to meds.
So is pop cap.

Yet you have found minor problem with that stats of the unit...

There is plenty of units that had minor stat problem fixed and they suddenly became effective meta units.
Point case:
T34 coax and pintle MGs, cons dmg and accuracy tweak, PG timing.

Give it to the UKF or OKW or even ostheer and see how cost efficient it actually is.

The same can be said about KT if you gave it to USF or soviets.
Or pwerfer to brits.
Or Panther to any allied faction.

People who tend to play just 1 side tend to be completely blind to strengths of units, because they never go up against them and people who constantly face them see them exclusively too strong as they never see what they can't do. And I'm quoting example of both cases.

SU-76 does not need much, but to say its cost efficient unit in current state is insanity.

The SU-76 is a good AT and is effective At when build in numbers with additional utility of barrage

If you need at least 2 of a unit for it to be effective it's not a good unit.

but loses any sort of lategame scaling and is extremely squishy... it also isnt put on high regard by many players and is rarely if ever used

In late it uses its utility which is barrage.

should it be good against superheavies and panzer 4? yeah sure... its a turretless slow tank destroyer that is more expensive than a panzer 4 yet slower and is specialized against armor...

Mobility:
PzIV Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.1/ vet 3 Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.3
SU-85: Speed: 5.7 Accel: 2.1 vet Speed: 6.8 Accel: 2.1 in sort SU-85 is not slow

Su-85 is slower at vet but faster at vet 3 but why on earth are you comparing a TD with tank?

the SU-85 actually fares worse against an ost player fielding panzer 4`s than it does against an ost player fielding panthers... the SU-85 is too slow to catch the panzer 4 and the panzer 4 can still punish infantry on the flanks and abuse the fact that the soviet infantry isnt exactly top dog...

The panther is faster than PvIV...

the only OP heavy tank destroyer around these parts is the main battle jackson which is turreted fast while having HVAP on top of its slightly lower DPS but still really good gun...

The SU-85 does not need HVAP because it penetration is 312/299/286 at vet 2 which is higher than HVAP at vet 2.

yeah the squishyness and the relatively low DPS of the SU-76 are "minor stats" in your opinion... but that is not an opinion shared by alot of players who think the SU-76 needs more scaling...

Its DPS is actually fine for cost.

What exactly would you suggest?

If you need at least 2 of a unit for it to be effective it's not a good unit.

So all mainline infatry are not good units...

The unit performs according to its cost and that makes cost efficient.

It should have its gun rotation increased -15 +15 but further buffs would require increasing price and would make it more attractive.

Everything is effective when spammed and you don't apply correct counter fast enough(CE flamer spam vs OKW 1v1 anyone?).
But in this case, you're paying 70 fuel for more mobile, less effective ZiS.
Puma costs just as much, arrives earlier, self spots without vet or constant muni expenditure, has self defense mechanic, has turret, can actually chase low health tanks and has a chance to escape them.

So yeah, there is same role package(light vehicle TD to engage lvs and meds) with much more utility then barrage.

SU-76 still has a superior gun with more range, double the far penetration and more than one and half the accuracy and the ability to barrage.

And these units are meant to be used differently.

But since according to you "Everything is effective when spammed" and Puma is so great feel free to provide a replay where spammed Puma and won.

It has no turret, therefore it is bad.
This is what everyone says about StuG3 and JP4, so it must be unquestionable true regardless of other traits.

Pls stop saying what other say and try to say something for yourself.

And how do you imagine that should be achieved?
You can't lower nerf, because it won't be effective vs heavies.

Yes you can't "lower nerf"

Same with accuracy.

Yes you can lower accuracy because super heavies and medium have different target sizes

If you nerf RoF, heavies will be able to push through and it'll appear in pairs, invalidating P4s just as much.

Yes you can lower ROF and increase damage and it would remain as effective vs Super heavies but less effective vs mediums.

Cost is already very high compared to meds.
So is pop cap.

No pop (and cost) is lower than M36/FF/Panther and can be increase to match them.

The XP value is also lower, can also be increased to match them.

The focus sight can become a timed ability (or rmeoved) and/or tracking can also be removed

There is plenty of units that had minor stat problem fixed and they suddenly became effective meta units.
Point case:
T34 coax and pintle MGs, cons dmg and accuracy tweak, PG timing.

Your idea of "minor" is funny, T-34 mg where buffed through the roof and so where PG timing

The same can be said about KT if you gave it to USF or soviets.
Or pwerfer to brits.
Or Panther to any allied faction.

great do you actually have point or just typing?

People who tend to play just 1 side tend to be completely blind to strengths of units, because they never go up against them and people who constantly face them see them exclusively too strong as they never see what they can't do. And I'm quoting example of both cases.

People who do not play the game are "completely blind" to things about the units of the game.

SU-76 does not need much, but to say its cost efficient unit in current state is insanity.

The only insanity is your obsession to question other's people sanity.

So all mainline infatry are not good units...

The unit performs according to its cost and that makes cost efficient.

It should have its gun rotation increased -15 +15 but further buffs would require increasing price and would make it more attractive.

Come on now. You sre better than that. Mainline are supposed to be used in numbers. They are an exception not the rule. If you need 2 mgs to stop infantry from walking up to you it's not a good mg. If you need 2 snipers for them to generate value they are not up to snuff. If you need 2 su76 for them to be effective they are not in a good spot.

Come on now. You sre better than that. Mainline are supposed to be used in numbers. They are an exception not the rule. If you need 2 mgs to stop infantry from walking up to you it's not a good mg. If you need 2 snipers for them to generate value they are not up to snuff. If you need 2 su76 for them to be effective they are not in a good spot.

The thing has almost half the cost of PzIV if it could counter a PzIV on its own it would be OP.

A supported Su-76 can ping PzIV at range 60 and provide barrages, so it effective and performing according to cost.

But if you have a suggestion I would be happy to hear it.

The thing has almost half the cost of PzIV if it could counter a PzIV on its own it would be OP.

A supported Su-76 can ping PzIV at range 60 and provide barrages, so it effective and performing according to cost.

But if you have a suggestion I would be happy to hear it.

its not its initial value that is problematic its that it becomes dead weight later on because its made of glass and no, buying another scaling does not make.

i posted my suggestion earlier about tech locked scaling, saying its good enough if you just buy another is not fixing the problem.

durability is a lot in this game and the su76 has none. you say it shouldnt be soloing an p4 and thats fair, but it cant solo anything except a bunker. a luchs even has the capacity to beat it up due to its lack of turret and extremely low durability, let alone a puma who will literally run circles around it for a similar cost. the su76 doesnt even have a cunts hairs hope of a chance and the barrage doesnt offset that it can be killed by literally anything starting at and exceeding a 222.

In late it uses its utility which is barrage.

not good enough for most people... at least for the SU-76

Su-85 is slower at vet but faster at vet 3 but why on earth are you comparing a TD with tank?

exactly the point... it should be good against the panzer 4 because its a tank DESTROYER.... complaining about the SU-85 being good against panzer 4s is like complaining that the brummbar is good vs infantry...

The panther is faster than PvIV...

you misunderstand... the panzer 4 can punish infantry alot more efficiently than a panther can... that plus the fact that its faster than an SU-85 makes it pretty easy to punish a soviet player... especially since the soviets dont have a functioning machinegun outside of doctrines

The SU-85 does not need HVAP because it penetration is 312/299/286 at vet 2 which is higher than HVAP at vet 2.

HVAP also boosts the damage dealt per shot...

Its DPS is actually fine for cost.

ehh no the SU-76 has pretty low DPS ever since it was nerfed...

What exactly would you suggest?

darkarmadillo`s suggestion of an SU-76M upgrade which boosted its HP and DPS was a pretty neat idea... the unit would most definitely scale better into the lategame while maintaining its current midgame power level....

The thing has almost half the cost of PzIV if it could counter a PzIV on its own it would be OP.

A supported Su-76 can ping PzIV at range 60 and provide barrages, so it effective and performing according to cost.

But if you have a suggestion I would be happy to hear it.

So by your very own standard, Puma is OP as it counters all stock and premium meds with sole exception of easy8, which simply has way too much armor for it.

Unless, we're talking double standards here, where presence of wehrmacht cross makes the unit balanced in same situations for the same costs.

its not its initial value that is problematic its that it becomes dead weight later on because its made of glass and no, buying another scaling does not make.

i posted my suggestion earlier about tech locked scaling, saying its good enough if you just buy another is not fixing the problem.

durability is a lot in this game and the su76 has none. you say it shouldnt be soloing an p4 and thats fair, but it cant solo anything except a bunker. a luchs even has the capacity to beat it up due to its lack of turret and extremely low durability, let alone a puma who will literally run circles around it for a similar cost. the su76 doesnt even have a cunts hairs hope of a chance and the barrage doesnt offset that it can be killed by literally anything starting at and exceeding a 222.

The Su-76 outranges most vehicles by 20-10 if it takes fire it is in the wrong spot.

...
id like to see the t70 toned down a bit and the su76 to get some upgrade or something at t4 to get it over the hump since late game its barrage often isnt enough to warrant its micro or pop cap given its durability.
su76M upgrade (i know the model in game already is the su76M but i wont tell if you dont) turns the gun into a zis clone, maybe 80 more health? make it cost fuel and manpower. gives it a bit of scaling it sorely lacks

There is problem with such upgrade which apparent with Sherman dozer upgrade. The low cost allows early access and the upgrade makes the unit remain good through the game allowing to spam the unit.

In addition I doubt it would an effective change even if it was implemented, with the 7 men upgrade and by moving doctrinal tank to T4 Soviet want to build the T4 as soon as possible and once it is build the SU-85 would remain a better option than SU-76...

not good enough for most people... at least for the SU-76

SU-76 has one of the best barrage in game once vetted for cost able to kill entities with first shot while firing at longer range than other barrages.

The unit needs to have effectiveness reduced with timed or it would become spammable again since it is dirty cheap.

exactly the point... it should be good against the panzer 4 because its a tank DESTROYER.... complaining about the SU-85 being good against panzer 4s is like complaining that the brummbar is good vs infantry...

Point here is that is should not make PzIV obsolete with a probability to damage (hit and penetrate) near 100% at range 60. If Su-85 was designed to counter Super heavy tank that would create space for the SU-76 to PzIV.

you misunderstand... the panzer 4 can punish infantry alot more efficiently than a panther can... that plus the fact that its faster than an SU-85 makes it pretty easy to punish a soviet player... especially since the soviets dont have a functioning machinegun outside of doctrines

SU-85 is fast enough and has the range to keep the PzIV away. In some it can completely shut it down.

HVAP also boosts the damage dealt per shot...

And forces a reload and has a munition cost and reduces ROF. In most cases it not worth using. SU-85 simply has superior gun than the M36 and one of the best guns in game.

ehh no the SU-76 has pretty low DPS ever since it was nerfed...

That is because you mistakenly think that SU-76 was nerfed when last patched:
Show Spoiler

SU-76 firing on PzIV
DPS=22.7/20.8/19.0/17.2/16.5/15.8/15.2

Puma firing on Cromwell
DPS=29.3/29.3/22.4/16.5/11.4/7.3

Has more than double the DPS at range 60 that Puma has at range 50 while firing at more expensive vehicle. It does not have low DPS for cost.

darkarmadillo`s suggestion of an SU-76M upgrade which boosted its HP and DPS was a pretty neat idea... the unit would most definitely scale better into the lategame while maintaining its current midgame power level....

I simply do not agree it will simply become spammable again. One should create room for unit to coexist not buff them overlap them. Imo making SU-85 designed vs Super heavies and SU-76 designed vs mediums is the way to go.

SU-76 has one of the best barrage in game once vetted for cost able to kill entities with first shot while firing at longer range than other barrages.

The unit needs to have effectiveness reduced with timed or it would become spammable again since it is dirty cheap.

i was recommending an upgrade similar to darkarmadillo`s suggestion of invest X amount of fuel and MP to add much needed survivability and a bit of DPS to the SU-85 in a similar sense to the sherman dozer....

Point here is that is should not make PzIV obsolete with a probability to damage (hit and penetrate) near 100% at range 60. If Su-85 was designed to counter Super heavy tank that would create space for the SU-76 to PzIV.

the SU-85 should be a hard counter period... if you think a cheaper all purpose medium tank has any business defeating a more expensive tank destroyer then we can never come to a conclusion... the SU-85 has every right to crush the panzer 4 if they butt heads...

SU-85 is fast enough and has the range to keep the PzIV away. In some it can completely shut it down.

thats not how it works though...
1. the P4 can be used at sections of the map where the SU-85 isnt... even if the SU-85 moved at the speed of usain bolt theres no way it can catch the panzer 4 before it does some damage to infantry

2. german infantry can just crush through soviet infantry anyways and the SU-85 is forced to watch... ofc theres the katyusha but the germans have the equally dangerous panzerwerfer...

That is because you mistakenly think that SU-76 was nerfed when last patched:
Show Spoiler

it wasnt nerfed in that patch... it was nerfed a couple of patches ago where its reload rate was increased by 1 second...

SU-76 firing on PzIV
DPS=22.7/20.8/19.0/17.2/16.5/15.8/15.2

Puma firing on Cromwell
DPS=29.3/29.3/22.4/16.5/11.4/7.3

Has more than double the DPS at range 60 that Puma has at range 50 while firing at more expensive vehicle. It does not have low DPS for cost.

it is unfair to compare the SU-76 to the puma when the latter has a turret along with built in smoke and a strong vet 1 ability and at least some usefulness against infantry outside of its barrage... plus it has more close range DPS by nature of being a flanking tank...

i was recommending an upgrade similar to darkarmadillo`s suggestion of invest X amount of fuel and MP to add much needed survivability and a bit of DPS to the SU-85 in a similar sense to the sherman dozer....

And as I have explained while responding to darkarmdilo the Sherman dozer upgrade is badly designed and should be removed.

I you want to talk about Su-76 more I suggest this thread:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105625/su-76-a-slight-adjustment

the SU-85 should be a hard counter period... if you think a cheaper all purpose medium tank has any business defeating a more expensive tank destroyer then we can never come to a conclusion... the SU-85 has every right to crush the panzer 4 if they butt heads...

It is not a question if it should be a hard counter or not but how easy it counter. Ability to selfspot even beyond max range nearly 100% chance to damage as PzIV at range 60 is bad design that ignores two game mechanism (chance to hit and chance to penetrate).

To put in plain English if the SU-85 on top of that did 640 to PzIV it would "crush the panzer 4" "as it has every right" but I think we can both agree that it would bad for the game.

As long as the SU-85 is better vs every target than SU-76 and as long as the zis has a close enough barrage there will be little reason to build SU-76.

thats not how it works though...
1. the P4 can be used at sections of the map where the SU-85 isnt... even if the SU-85 moved at the speed of usain bolt theres no way it can catch the panzer 4 before it does some damage to infantry

2. german infantry can just crush through soviet infantry anyways and the SU-85 is forced to watch... ofc theres the katyusha but the germans have the equally dangerous panzerwerfer...

Think you overestimating effect of the 0.6 difference is speed at vet 0. If that was the case SU-85 would completely own the PZIv once vetted

it wasnt nerfed in that patch... it was nerfed a couple of patches ago where its reload rate was increased by 1 second...

That was in 2018 and the Stug got the same treatment. In the same patch it got a buff to its barrage.

it is unfair to compare the SU-76 to the puma when the latter has a turret along with built in smoke and a strong vet 1 ability and at least some usefulness against infantry outside of its barrage...

Someone else started the comparison and you claimed that it has low DPS I have provided the stat that prove it has superior DPS.

plus it has more close range DPS by nature of being a flanking tank...

Are you seriously going to argue that Puma being x130% better at ranges 0-10 gives it an advantage when Su-76 is x213% at range 50?

Think I have explained my point of view clearly on this matters and have little to add. Thanks for the debate.

There is problem with such upgrade which apparent with Sherman dozer upgrade. The low cost allows early access and the upgrade makes the unit remain good through the game allowing to spam the unit.

In addition I doubt it would an effective change even if it was implemented, with the 7 men upgrade and by moving doctrinal tank to T4 Soviet want to build the T4 as soon as possible and once it is build the SU-85 would remain a better option than SU-76...

your two statements contradict each other... on one end youre concluding that the upgrade makes the unit lame and spammable and on the other youre claiming it may not be enough because the soviets still have the SU-85/zis/7 man on T4 combo...

this is exactly why the upgrade is necessary... that ways the soviets dont rely on a one trick pony for the lategame and can function efficiently either with multirole SU-76s or the SU-85/zis + T-34 trick...

It is not a question if it should be a hard counter or not but how easy it counter. Ability to selfspot even beyond max range nearly 100% chance to damage as PzIV at range 60 is bad design that ignores two game mechanism (chance to hit and chance to penetrate).

To put in plain English if the SU-85 on top of that did 640 to PzIV it would "crush the panzer 4" "as it has every right" but I think we can both agree that it would bad for the game.

As long as the SU-85 is better vs every target than SU-76 and as long as the zis has a close enough barrage there will be little reason to build SU-76.

the argumentum ad absurdum falls flat at the original premise though, remember that on one hand we have a specialized anti armor unit that costs more than the generalist armor unit... it should absolutely crush the generalist... however if the SU-85 did 640 damage per shot it would be soo OP that it would literally destroy every other armored unit ingame in a 1v1... hence it is no longer beating the generalist armored unit alone but also more expensive anti armor specialists such as the JT or the elephant...

the SU-85 is balanced right now because it strikes a balance between how much it costs and what it should counter... send a medium generalist at an SU-85? it should go poof... send a JT on an SU-85? expect the SU-85 to go poof....

Think you overestimating effect of the 0.6 difference is speed at vet 0. If that was the case SU-85 would completely own the PZIv once vetted

the Panzer 4 has a powerful vet ability that causes it to run on overdrive... if we talk vet we also take into consideration its abilities....

That was in 2018 and the Stug got the same treatment. In the same patch it got a buff to its barrage.

i dont remember the exact stats but i remember the SU getting nerfed first and getting nerfed harder

Are you seriously going to argue that Puma being x130% better at ranges 0-10 gives it an advantage when Su-76 is x213% at range 50?

when you take the turret smoke and vet ability advantage? yes of course... a puma will crush an SU-76 on a 1 on 1 easily...

the argumentum ad absurdum falls flat at the original premise though, remember that on one hand we have a specialized anti armor unit that costs more than the generalist armor unit... it should absolutely crush the generalist... however if the SU-85 did 640 damage per shot it would be soo OP that it would literally destroy every other armored unit ingame in a 1v1... hence it is no longer beating the generalist armored unit alone but also more expensive anti armor specialists such as the JT or the elephant...

This is used as example and I explained it would only do 640 vs PzIV. I am simply pointing out that there are level of how good a unit can counter another.

the SU-85 is balanced right now because it strikes a balance between how much it costs and what it should counter... send a medium generalist at an SU-85? it should go poof... send a JT on an SU-85? expect the SU-85 to go poof....

So in your opinion the Panther who is even more expensive than a SU-85 how much change should it have to damage a medium allied tank at range 50.

the Panzer 4 has a powerful vet ability that causes it to run on overdrive... if we talk vet we also take into consideration its abilities....

Again if you can not counter PzIV with SU-85 you are probably doing something wrong. Risking a PzIV to kill a couple of conscripts models in not a great use of the unit.

i dont remember the exact stats but i remember the SU getting nerfed first and getting nerfed harder

Selective memory
Update: 17th of May 2018 (Updated with the additional intended changed from hotfix post)
Show Spoiler

when you take the turret smoke and vet ability advantage? yes of course... a puma will crush an SU-76 on a 1 on 1 easily...

Does a 1vs1 duel in a vacuum make SU-76 have low DPS vs mediums?
I have provided the stat and they are crystal clear the SU-76's DPS is line if not superior for cost.

The claim that SU-76 has low DPS is simply false, pls move on.