Why Soviets are OP

Uhh no that's not even close to what I'm saying... It's not that the game will be over it's that if you get one AFTER a t70 (????) you're gonna have this thing called a p4 to deal with...


What? Well now you've lost me cause the AAHT is way better at fighting ground units than the quad. Can suppress on the move, and has the flak cannon to help against light tanks. It also arrives earlier...

Unintuitive in terms of having to reverse to go forward and to right click to reverse, and to constantly handbrake to maximise damage output. I'm not sure about the DPS vs infantry tbh, feels like quad does a lot better, but main point was ease of use and its resulting survivability. I like the quad - and I'm defending it against people who describe it as if it's "only good for AA".

I mean, if you could somehow build T70 and Luchs, no one would ever build Luchs. If you could somehow build both P4J and Cromwell, you'd pretty much never build the Cromwell. Quad is in an awkward spot because of Soviet T3 cost and because its rival for Anti-Infantry duty is the T70. That doesn't make it a bad unit "only having value as an AA unit".

Quad is in an awkward spot because of Soviet T3 cost and because its rival for Anti-Infantry duty is the T70. That doesn't make it a bad unit "only having value as an AA unit".

Okay but that's part of what people are saying. No one should build a quad if they want AI power. It's not terrible, but it's not good enough to justify delaying a t70.

And if you get it right after the t70 that makes even less sense because of the p4 that's about to be breathing down your neck with nothing to contest it

Okay but that's part of what people are saying. No one should build a quad if they want AI power. It's not terrible, but it's not good enough to justify delaying a t70.

And if you get it right after the t70 that makes even less sense because of the p4 that's about to be breathing down your neck with nothing to contest it

And if you finally DO get M5 without a swarm of planes above your head, quad is not the reason.

In tournaments? If its the case, then its most likely due to top players during tournaments rarely pick soviets, most of the time they pick UKF\USF.

I didnt see relic post win-rates for automatch anyway. Not like, I'm saying soviets arent weakest allied faction, not over-all weakest, but I would like to see win rates.

You can compare pick rate of factions between pre patch and post patch. Most of the players are the same and we have completely shifted from going SU/USF and OKW to USF/UKF and OH mostly. The distribution for allies faction is not as bad though as before (no one picking UKF) while Axis has arguable shifted more towards OH.


As far as automatch stats, we have Syphon thread. It's only for 1v1.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/105597/1v1-automatch-stats/page/1#post_id822826

I honestly don't know how you could tone down Soviet AA without making it useless. Maybe somebody with better insight does know.

Give it same AA as 222 but:

Let is spawn with AA and add a new refresh vehicle. Using e.g. the unused blueprint of Katjusha-truck working like OKW Opel-Blitz. Maybe also increase HP of M5 so it needs 3 shots.

That wouldn't change much of Soviets game-play, only that you don't have to update your vehicle.

-> the M5 in commanders can become a better version of refresh-trucks, needing 3 shots.

Weak early game map control(penals or T2 openings), reliance on map control over combat potential with con openings, bad scaling of cons through mid game, leading to almost mandatory reliance of crutch T-70 especially in 1v1, over reliance on TD due to stock med armor just not being competitive against P4s outside of very lucky RNG streaks or overextentions, heavy infantry mp bleed in mid game.

How do you figure? The Soviets have a way better early game than the Brits do now, and its always been 10x better than USF which is by far the worst of any faction.

Soviets have several opening game options such as Conscripts, Penals, Maxim, Sniper ect.

How do you figure? The Soviets have a way better early game than the Brits do now, and its always been 10x better than USF which is by far the worst of any faction.

Soviets have several opening game options such as Conscripts, Penals, Maxim, Sniper ect.

Maxim spam has not been a viable opening for the last 3 years.
Conscript opening is fine I would say, in all T1 openings you usually lack behind in map control because you just don't have many units on the field. Even more so if you go for a sniper.

Soviets have several opening game options such as Conscripts, Penals, Maxim, Sniper ect.

Cons are your only choice actually. Penal starts are a joke, the Maxim is a meme, needs an army around it to actually work somewhat and soviet sniper needs a useless techs structure and gets countered by 222 with infantry detection and/or countersnipe.

Cons are your only choice actually. Penal starts are a joke, the Maxim is a meme, needs an army around it to actually work somewhat and soviet sniper needs a useless techs structure and gets countered by 222 with infantry detection and/or countersnipe.

Allied light vehicles are largely useless with the abundance of cheap and readily available Axis AT. But I've always thought Penals and Sniper was good against OKW.

Allied light vehicles are largely useless with the abundance of cheap and readily available Axis AT. But I've always thought Penals and Sniper was good against OKW.

Cheap = more expensive than the USF AT gun apparently.

Readily available = Only the raketen. Good thing we have asymmetric design where OKW can have easy access to AT guns while USF gets free squads with better DPS than that of rifles.

Cons are your only choice actually. Penal starts are a joke, the Maxim is a meme, needs an army around it to actually work somewhat and soviet sniper needs a useless techs structure and gets countered by 222 with infantry detection and/or countersnipe.

Serious question:
How come? Penals and sniper openings have been the meta for what feels like ages until Conscripts got their 7-man buff. And at least in the early game, not much has changed on the Axis side. Volks got a mini nerf, Sturmpios a very small combat buff. Grenadiers got a vet3 buff but that does not affect the early game.
PGrens come earlier now, that's probably the biggest new thing in Axis early game, plus Panzerfusiliere are now (compared to 2-3 years ago) viable although we do not see them in every game anyway.
Throughout all those mini changes, Soviets have been a quite competitive faction, regardless if they were using Penals or Cons. And judging by tournament games we had since the 7-men buff, Penal builds are less abundant but still played and also still competitive. So it's at least not as a clear case as you make it out to be.

I'd rather argue that Conscripts have become so cost efficient especially in the late game that they just beat Penal build. Especially considering that T1 builds need to back tech at some point while T2 build do not.

Serious question:
How come? Penals and sniper openings have been the meta for what feels like ages until Conscripts got their 7-man buff. And at least in the early game, not much has changed on the Axis side. Volks got a mini nerf, Sturmpios a very small combat buff. Grenadiers got a vet3 buff but that does not affect the early game.
PGrens come earlier now, that's probably the biggest new thing in Axis early game, plus Panzerfusiliere are now (compared to 2-3 years ago) viable although we do not see them in every game anyway.
Throughout all those mini changes, Soviets have been a quite competitive faction, regardless if they were using Penals or Cons. And judging by tournament games we had since the 7-men buff, Penal builds are less abundant but still played and also still competitive. So it's at least not as a clear case as you make it out to be.

I'd rather argue that Conscripts have become so cost efficient especially in the late game that they just beat Penal build. Especially considering that T1 builds need to back tech at some point while T2 build do not.

You are looking at things in isolation, without considering what each openings achieves/tries to do and the meta around that let them shine or not.

1- Penals vs Cons. They achieve completely opposite effects.
One relies in pure brute strength early on which fells short as the game goes on. You sacrifice map control in favour of finding isolated targets to force retreats and then trying to snowball from that position.
Cons are the opposite. You get map control, you can stall with sandbags and are more efficient in the late game, specially as snare units. You get the added benefit of merging early on flamers. As you mentioned, you also save money and time in T2 as that's your natural tech progression.

2- Penals strats are not ideal against OH, specially in the current meta which absolutely demolishes as it punishes SU early mid even harder.
OKW has historically been the main use of Penal based strats, and less people play them.

3- Penals based strats require the faction to rely on "hero" units to carry later on. Either mass T70 based strats or late game units like IS2/KV2. When OH consistently gets to put pressure delaying T70 or accessing T3, and OKW doesn't feel the need to go mechanized "all in" with P2/Puma, more in favour of BHQ with Flak/fast transitioning to PIV, the strat is less effective.

4- Sniper strat is awful against OH meta and high risk, mid reward against OKW. Clowncar strats have generally been only great against OKW and everyone has a pocket PF just in case to counter it. Sniper was only meta during GC2, with OH been mostly Mobile defense. We didn't see snipers during heavy meta.

At this point i think i need to disclaim that this is mostly on 1v1. Sniper can still be used on 2v2.


It's not that T1 openings have become useless or non existent (such as maxim spam), it's just that it has become even more niche or become a "pocket" strats that only works in specific situations compared to bread n butter Cons + T2.

You are looking at things in isolation, without considering what each openings achieves/tries to do and the meta around that let them shine or not.

1- Penals vs Cons. They achieve completely opposite effects.
One relies in pure brute strength early on which fells short as the game goes on. You sacrifice map control in favour of finding isolated targets to force retreats and then trying to snowball from that position.
Cons are the opposite. You get map control, you can stall with sandbags and are more efficient in the late game, specially as snare units. You get the added benefit of merging early on flamers. As you mentioned, you also save money and time in T2 as that's your natural tech progression.

2- Penals strats are not ideal against OH, specially in the current meta which absolutely demolishes as it punishes SU early mid even harder.
OKW has historically been the main use of Penal based strats, and less people play them.

3- Penals based strats require the faction to rely on "hero" units to carry later on. Either mass T70 based strats or late game units like IS2/KV2. When OH consistently gets to put pressure delaying T70 or accessing T3, and OKW doesn't feel the need to go mechanized "all in" with P2/Puma, more in favour of BHQ with Flak/fast transitioning to PIV, the strat is less effective.

4- Sniper strat is awful against OH meta and high risk, mid reward against OKW. Clowncar strats have generally been only great against OKW and everyone has a pocket PF just in case to counter it. Sniper was only meta during GC2, with OH been mostly Mobile defense. We didn't see snipers during heavy meta.

At this point i think i need to disclaim that this is mostly on 1v1. Sniper can still be used on 2v2.


It's not that T1 openings have become useless or non existent (such as maxim spam), it's just that it has become even more niche or become a "pocket" strats that only works in specific situations compared to bread n butter Cons + T2.

I assumed Stormjäger was talking about openings.

The first point has always been the case, just that Conscripts did not scale as well plus they were hardly replacable late game because their starting power was very bad. In addition, there was no way to buff them (hence also the veterancy gain buff with the upgrade). But overall this is not specific to the current meta.
I just checked the GCS2 stats. Apparently I misremembered as I thought Penals had been used in the majority of cases, whereas T1 and T2 openings are both almost exactly 50:50.

Overall, Penal strats and T1 openings have been handed down from being a viable alternative to a niche and rare occasion. As you said this might be partially attributed to players choosing OST over OKW more often now, but the extend that Penals have suddenly become niche is quite staggering.

... but the extend that Penals have suddenly become niche is quite staggering.

Power creep.

Power creep.

Well yes, for infantry I agree compared to 1-2 years ago.

Is it a bad thing? Not necessarily. It just depends on the desired pace of the game and the current one does not feel off.

Well yes, for infantry I agree compared to 1-2 years ago.

Is it a bad thing? Not necessarily. It just depends on the desired pace of the game and the current one does not feel off.

To me it feels that infatry have too much damage.

And that is why people are using less support weapons and more brute force...

Overall, Penal strats and T1 openings have been handed down from being a viable alternative to a niche and rare occasion. As you said this might be partially attributed to players choosing OST over OKW more often now, but the extend that Penals have suddenly become niche is quite staggering.

Because, surprise surprise, Penals on their own had only been an issue for a short term in CoH2's life. Having more than 50% of strats been composed of Penals relied heavily on the viability of other units first and what you have in front. You can't really make the tier mainstream without it been obnoxious to play against, because the tier is composed of niche/cheese units.
(This talk is about 1v1. On teamgames you can get away with much more, including any T1 unit)

I'll reminder you that people's first kneejerck reaction prior to this patch was, that OH would be in an awful state because they were reliant on the "Tiger" for having any chance to win. When the analysis of games played during the 1v1 tournament showed that they were the most affected in a negative way for been forced to pick Tiger doctrines, specially against Soviets.
When you are not forced to pick heavy doctrines, you can make OH play shine with Prosstruppen, AG, 5 Gren/G43 squads.


I had always argue that putting the 45mm AT gun on T1 and keeping Penals AI only (maybe including the sticky satchel) would had been a much better solution in the long run. There's not much you can do with a tier when most people don't want 2/3 of their units to be viable/meta at all.

Penals should be just cheaper, while some of their AI should be locked behind free upgrade.

Because while they are very powerfull, overall presence on the field suffers badly in 1v1, while in teamgames, they perform much better, since teammate can carry you a bit early and in retern you provide almost rolf-stomp inf.

Point is being, I would rather see them with 2 mosins\3 SVTs while cost being droped to 270\280 MP, with T3 providing free additional SVTs for all non-PTRS squads. Maybe even grenades for non-PTRS squads aswell.

But honestly there are a lot of possabilities how to make soviet tech better. Like molies and AT should be one upgrade. Cons 7-men grade should be for sure spleet up between T3 and T4. With T3 unlocking upgrade and providing 7 men, T4 upping this grade and providing buffs or vise versa.

Honestly a lot of soviet changes, sometimes feels like they were made as a bandage, without looking at whole faction and rather looking at specific lacklaster units and patching them instead of how faction works.

Serious question:
How come? Penals and sniper openings have been the meta for what feels like ages until Conscripts got their 7-man buff. And at least in the early game, not much has changed on the Axis side. Volks got a mini nerf, Sturmpios a very small combat buff. Grenadiers got a vet3 buff but that does not affect the early game.
PGrens come earlier now, that's probably the biggest new thing in Axis early game, plus Panzerfusiliere are now (compared to 2-3 years ago) viable although we do not see them in every game anyway.
Throughout all those mini changes, Soviets have been a quite competitive faction, regardless if they were using Penals or Cons. And judging by tournament games we had since the 7-men buff, Penal builds are less abundant but still played and also still competitive. So it's at least not as a clear case as you make it out to be.

I'd rather argue that Conscripts have become so cost efficient especially in the late game that they just beat Penal build. Especially considering that T1 builds need to back tech at some point while T2 build do not.

Honestly, against soviets, I'm more than likely to forego a flame half-track for a PG with schrecks because I know a T-70 is coming. Plus, AT penals just melt a flame track. Even conscripts can oorah and double nade it.

So I go PG shrecks. I have to. Always try to keep one gren along it for the faust, and double PG's at close range should take care of it.

As for OKW, my main play is Battlegroup for a Flaktrack.

If I'm not using Fallschrims, I'm more than likely using Fusilers due to their scaleability. I may have one Volks for snaring and utility, but they simply cannot survive the late game, even with vet. I can't think of one mainline unit it beats late game (USF double bars, UKF bolster double brens, Soviet 7 man) I honestly don't think the power spike you get with STG's early on makes it worth it.

Honestly, I wish Volks had a bit more grit late game, and I wish Obers would come a bit earlier. Obers have the same problem; they come way late, and when they do, even with an MG34, it's a four man unit that can't burn down 7 man soviets, double bars, double brens, not to mention elite infantry like shock troops until they vet. Which is ridiculous considering how much they cost and when they are available.

Honestly, FG-42 Fallschims are the best AI unit OKW has. Not Obers.