Why Soviets are OP
26 Sep 2020, 16:54 PM
#221
Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21
There is one way to block ram against heavy tanks. Support weapons and other vehicles can block the ram from hitting your heavy if you put it in front of the heavy itself/angle of direction the t-34 plans to ram from.
26 Sep 2020, 18:20 PM
#222
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Planes are batshit broken, not the AA. Specially in terms of "effort" required to deploy vs countering them.
If you want to use planes, take down AA first. Most if not all single pass planes achieve their objective before they can be taken down. So AA is mostly used to counter loitering ones.
Um.. sure but it doesnt mean that AAs should operate on Quad level. Only skillplanes AAs cant counter properly are fragbomb, IL-2 bombing\rocket run well and british bombing run, they indeed will most of the time deliver their attack before they are shot down. Well and USF thundebolt is quite tanky and hard to destoy, compared to IL-2s strafing runs lets say or british ones.
But it has to with planes stats probably.
At the same time CAS and Overwatch abilities are completly countered by Quad, they at best can deliver 1 strafe run each before being brutalized by it.
Fact is fact AA HT\Ostwind\Centaur provide more or less reliable AA capabilies, without being over-the-top and you can play around it. Quad HT shut down planes by farting in their direction.
You can freely check in cheatmod how much time it takes for littery any other AA unit in the game to kill planes (which are in most cases having more or less same perfomance) and how broken Quad is in its AA perfomance.
If in your opinion planes are batshit broken, then planes should be ajusted via timings\speed\armor\HP, because they are units after all, with proper unit stats. Make a research, look at stats, because I belive no-one did it and no-one even touched them, they were left as they are in a messy state.
At the same time Quad in its AA capabilities requare a fat nerf regardless of plane ajustements.
26 Sep 2020, 21:07 PM
#223
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
...
That's not how AA vs planes work unless something was changed that i'm not aware of.
Each AA unit has x chance to DESTROY any plane. Units like Ostwind have a higher % but since they shot less the actual chance is far lower. I think Mirage once tried to change it in either a preview or personal mod but it never made the cut to be implemented.
All single pass planes are pretty much impossible to destroy in a real live game. Period. In test scenarios you can have the AA unit perfectly aligned, with vision of where it's coming from and no targets blocking it from firing. There's plenty more of single pass planes, though they are not use at all. It's even worst with recon/smoke planes cause there's a bug which i have reported like several years ago that planes that provide vision will provide vision towards a direction on the map while they crash. Good luck stopping people from recon + offmaping your artillery pieces.
On 1v1 and in a lesser way 2v2, having a dedicated AA unit is a luxury which you pay with mp/fuel/popcap. Calling an offmap is a 1 click wonder. If things like mines and demos get hardcountered by the mere presence of a minesweeper i don't see why AA units shouldn't be doing exactly the same.
Edit: i found it
https://www.coh2.org/topic/61465/eastern-front-armies-revamp/page/26#post_id614389
So i'm suggesting based on the fact that Relic already denied this change to be applied.
We don't know if we will ever see a new patch ever again. So the chances of an AA rework are pretty much null.
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26 Sep 2020, 23:02 PM
#224
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Each AA unit has x chance to DESTROY any plane. Units like Ostwind have a higher % but since they shot less the actual chance is far lower. I think Mirage once tried to change it in either a preview or personal mod but it never made the cut to be implemented.
Yeah. You are completly right. I've checked it in mod tools. Pretty much all planes have 1000 armor and all AA units have a modifier on deflection to either insta destoy or do nothing to plane. Oswind for instance has 24% chance to destoy it and Quad has 10%, Centaur 16%, M15 and OKW HT 17%.
All other AA guns in the game have projectiles even Centaur, while Quad dont. Maybe its connected to this or ROF or something else. But its just most likely just works uncorrectly.
All single pass planes are pretty much impossible to destroy in a real live game. Period. In test scenarios you can have the AA unit perfectly aligned, with vision of where it's coming from and no targets blocking it from firing. There's plenty more of single pass planes, though they are not use at all. It's even worst with recon/smoke planes cause there's a bug which i have reported like several years ago that planes that provide vision will provide vision towards a direction on the map while they crash. Good luck stopping people from recon + offmaping your artillery pieces.
Can be fixed btw. All planes has separate entities for each ability, meaning accuracy vs specific planes can be ajusted and modied, same with them providing vision. Dont know where I gone with it, but point is it can be ajusted of some one in balance team decide to do so.
On 1v1 and in a lesser way 2v2, having a dedicated AA unit is a luxury which you pay with mp/fuel/popcap. Calling an offmap is a 1 click wonder. If things like mines and demos get hardcountered by the mere presence of a minesweeper i don't see why AA units shouldn't be doing exactly the same.
True and no so true. Bad comparison, mines dont cost you more in terms of resources, not to mention that by having minesweeper you sacrifice one squad fighting potentual. Also minesweepear counter offensive mines (frontline ones), while defensive mines are not hardcountered by it.
But point is. In best situation, single leiters should be easier to punish, but it should be done my manual ajustment, not by crealing broken units like quad.
26 Sep 2020, 23:17 PM
#225
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yeah. You are completly right. I've checked it in mod tools. Pretty much all planes have 1000 armor and all AA units have a modifier on deflection to either insta destoy or do nothing to plane. Oswind for instance has 24% chance to destoy it and Quad has 10%, Centaur 16%, M15 and OKW HT 17%.
All other AA guns in the game have projectiles even Centaur, while Quad dont. Maybe its connected to this or ROF or something else. But its just most likely just works uncorrectly.
...
It probably simply has to do with the sheer volume of fire the quad delivers that 4 barrel of MGs firing.
The problem started when it was patches and its AA capability was increase by around x33 times, which is a crazy buff.
M17 Quad
We wanted to tone down the performance of the Quad to be in-line with Light Tanks and other suppression platforms. In order to make infantry counters to this unit viable, the M17 can no longer suppress enemy squads on the move.
....
Increased the chance for the Quad to take down an airplane (from 30 in 10000 to 10 in 100)
27 Sep 2020, 00:45 AM
#226
Posts: 5279
I'd sooner all AA counter one click looters than none. At least AA takes up pop cap.
#stalinwept
27 Sep 2020, 04:49 AM
#227
Posts: 322
There is one way to block ram against heavy tanks. Support weapons and other vehicles can block the ram from hitting your heavy if you put it in front of the heavy itself/angle of direction the t-34 plans to ram from.
Thanks von, I used to do this with my Ostwind using blitzkrieg but now because I switch to use Brumbar, it's slow to block it like in a heartbeat so I gotta keep my brumbar in front of elefant all the time ( or against enemy that like to use ram )
27 Sep 2020, 11:25 AM
#228
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
It probably simply has to do with the sheer volume of fire the quad delivers that 4 barrel of MGs firing.
The problem started when it was patches and its AA capability was increase by around x33 times, which is a crazy buff.
Maybe. Best way to understand why it works like it works, is to check how mounted MGs\222 work in regards to chances hit chaces and accuracy.
I'd sooner all AA counter one click looters than none. At least AA takes up pop cap.
I still dont get this hate regarding planes. Thunderbolt\CAS\Overwatch assault are noone near in terms of BS compare to some arty abilities. Which usually cost the same ~200 muni but cant be countered at all. Like soviet AT overwatch for instance, UKF bombers or OKW sector assault.
27 Sep 2020, 11:34 AM
#229
Posts: 1392
I'd sooner all AA counter one click looters than none. At least AA takes up pop cap.
The difference is how potential it is. I say that since years... even made videos about how OP quad is.
On a 4vs4 map one quad is as powerfull as 3 Ostwinds... nobody cares.
it is simply a joke...
27 Sep 2020, 13:10 PM
#230
Posts: 1515
The difference is how potential it is. I say that since years... even made videos about how OP quad is.
On a 4vs4 map one quad is as powerfull as 3 Ostwinds... nobody cares.
it is simply a joke...
While I agree that it's strong, it's a dedicated AA counter. Ostwind can take on light tanks and even finish off medium from behind. It's more durable and much better vs infantry (AA can suppress but weaker generally). I don't think I've ever seen the soviet AA doing anything but shooting down planes, usually parked behind front lines. It's just that, a dedicated AA counter, while ostwind is not. Furthermore, soviet (except ISU and IS2) tanks do not have pintle MGs for aircraft engagement, while OKW and OST does. All in all, all factions have good AA options, with soviet AA being the best. Tone it's AA potential down and Ostwind or flak become the best, while also being much more versatile and generally better at AI (especially flak). It's a give/take relationship.
I honestly don't know how you could tone down Soviet AA without making it useless. Maybe somebody with better insight does know.
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27 Sep 2020, 13:17 PM
#231
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
All cool, except Centaur and M15 perform just as ostwind, maybe slitghtly better\worst. So your aurments are honestly quite irrelevant, because out of all AA units Quad is the single one which is broken in AA capabilities.
Quad is not AA specific unit. It provide great suppresion, can counter car-based LVs and have very decent damage. Its a mobile almost insta suppresion platform and great support unit.
27 Sep 2020, 14:32 PM
#232
Posts: 1351
it is simply a joke...
Nah. Just allied stuff and hope you remember who won the war.
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27 Sep 2020, 14:53 PM
#233
Posts: 52
Let’s be real, in most scenarios you get quad for AA in teamgames and that is very late when howis roll. It shuts down all and every plane, it comes on demand for a dirt cheap fuel and pop price, and it vets up very fast (ofc u pay handsomely in muni for aa upgrade but usually sov can afford it). You can’t fit an ostwind as easy in your comb on demand, let alone vet it (I know ostwind gets more aa benefits with vet, but still not as good in AA as vanilla quad).
27 Sep 2020, 15:08 PM
#234
Posts: 97
All cool, except Centaur and M15 perform just as ostwind, maybe slitghtly better\worst. So your aurments are honestly quite irrelevant, because out of all AA units Quad is the single one which is broken in AA capabilities.
Quad is not AA specific unit. It provide great suppresion, can counter car-based LVs and have very decent damage. Its a mobile almost insta suppresion platform and great support unit.
What Centaur and m15 have to do with this? They work the same as ostwind AA.
What car based LV are there? You mean like tier 2 222 that should be beatable by tier 3 vehicle? USF AA HF and OKW FlakHF are all T2 so obviosly they should be worse.
You can only compare Quad to Oswind. Ostwind has better armor, pintle mg (with suppression bulletin), it counters Stuart, AEC and T70 trading that for worse AA capabilities. IS that not a fair trade off? You want Ostwind to be the best in every single way?
27 Sep 2020, 15:20 PM
#235
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
What Centaur and m15 have to do with this? They work the same as ostwind AA.
What car based LV are there? You mean like tier 2 222 that should be beatable by tier 3 vehicle? USF AA HF and OKW FlakHF are all T2 so obviosly they should be worse.
You can only compare Quad to Oswind. Ostwind has better armor, pintle mg (with suppression bulletin), it counters Stuart, AEC and T70 trading that for worse AA capabilities. IS that not a fair trade off? You want Ostwind to be the best in every single way?
What Ostwind has to do with Quad? I dont get it, you was shown a comparison of Ostwind vs Quad in AA, you can replace ostwind with any AA unit you want, results will be the same.
I said, if you take ANY AA unit, from ANY faction, ALL of them like: Centaur, M15, bofors, Ostwind, AA HT, Mech HQ. Perform on the SAME lvl in their AA capabilities. Some might be better some might be worst, but they are still comparable and there are no clear winners.
What is this retarded aurgument that Oswind can do X thing thats why Quad has to do Y thing, more over Y thing has nothing to do with X.
In regards to your claims that ostwind has armor and can counter bla bla. It has nothing to do with unit AA capabilities. My reply was addressed to Angelus, who claimed that lowering AA perfomance to have same general lvl as other AA units, suddenly would make Quad useless and pointless to have.
It can still be best AA unit hands down, but it shoudnt shot down planets in a blink of the eye using communist laser beam tecnology.
27 Sep 2020, 16:21 PM
#236
Posts: 5279
What Ostwind has to do with Quad? I dont get it, you was shown a comparison of Ostwind vs Quad in AA, you can replace ostwind with any AA unit you want, results will be the same.
I said, if you take ANY AA unit, from ANY faction, ALL of them like: Centaur, M15, bofors, Ostwind, AA HT, Mech HQ. Perform on the SAME lvl in their AA capabilities. Some might be better some might be worst, but they are still comparable and there are no clear winners.
What is this retarded aurgument that Oswind can do X thing thats why Quad has to do Y thing, more over Y thing has nothing to do with X.
In regards to your claims that ostwind has armor and can counter bla bla. It has nothing to do with unit AA capabilities. My reply was addressed to Angelus, who claimed that lowering AA perfomance to have same general lvl as other AA units, suddenly would make Quad useless and pointless to have.
It can still be best AA unit hands down, but it shoudnt shot down planets in a blink of the eye using communist laser beam tecnology.
All other factions with all their other AA have alternatives or suplimentary AA.
USF has pintles.
OST has pintles and the 222
Ukf could build a bofors
OKW has free AA on their base, can build multiple 2cm pits and has pintles
Soviet can have 1 pintles on field max, and they are attached to the most expensive tanks in their entire roster AND are doctrinal, limited to 1.
ALL other AA is also more durable or survivable.
USF can disembark and screw up tracking (can also use this to generate vet for other tanks or give themselves a Vetted AAHT)
UKF centaur can bounce shots and has a large health pool making it impractical to dive
Ostwind can bounce shots, has health and has mobility
OKW has smoke and again that free AA on their base which can't be stressed enough as bonus AA
Soviet AA not only lacks durability it also lacks any way to escape from a bad situation.
I've also never seen a kraut mower used as a shock vehicle like I have for both halftrack AA variants (not since it got its mobile suppression and retaining reinforcement after upgrade removed anyways)
Odd for sure the least flexible, least survivable AA does AA better than any other. We should definitely look into this more while complely ignoring the surrounding army and traits as well as the unit itself except exclusively its ability to do its only job.
#stalinwept
27 Sep 2020, 16:43 PM
#237
Posts: 1289
Every other faction has more aa options stock. Those are either more durable, better vs inf and lights or any combination of these. And usf okw and ost have plenty of pintles on mediums and heavy tanks.
While the quad is to good in aa, it arrives late, is a 2 shot vehicle, the upgrade is expensive. And its the only soviet stock aa.
On way to fix this possibly is to lower its aa quite a bit and add light or weak supression on the move.
In the past it could supress on the move, as i remember it it supressed very fast this way that was to strong.
While the quad is to good in aa, it arrives late, is a 2 shot vehicle, the upgrade is expensive. And its the only soviet stock aa.
On way to fix this possibly is to lower its aa quite a bit and add light or weak supression on the move.
In the past it could supress on the move, as i remember it it supressed very fast this way that was to strong.
27 Sep 2020, 17:12 PM
#238
Posts: 52
All other factions with all their other AA have alternatives or suplimentary AA.
USF has pintles.
OST has pintles and the 222
Ukf could build a bofors
OKW has free AA on their base, can build multiple 2cm pits and has pintles
Soviet can have 1 pintles on field max, and they are attached to the most expensive tanks in their entire roster AND are doctrinal, limited to 1.
ALL other AA is also more durable or survivable.
USF can disembark and screw up tracking (can also use this to generate vet for other tanks or give themselves a Vetted AAHT)
UKF centaur can bounce shots and has a large health pool making it impractical to dive
Ostwind can bounce shots, has health and has mobility
OKW has smoke and again that free AA on their base which can't be stressed enough as bonus AA.
Correct, but other factions need significantly more resources to achieve the same AA result. Also for teamgames allies have stock recon in USF major and UKF officer, and much more artillery options to gain accuracy from sight, so it's much more binding for axis to invest in AA. OKW base AA is not so useful on most teamgame maps since most recon will pass from allies' territory first.
For the halftrack arguement, both halftrack AA variants (assuming OKW and USF ones) have an early timing where AT threats are not present, so they can do a couple pushes unthreatened. That doesn't mean they are used as shock vehicles, they might give some direct anti inf advantage early on, but they always end up guarding flanks and shooting planes exactly as the quad. They are also way more expensive, and can't be used as reinforce platforms.
M5's role is also reinforcing in the mid/late game, similarly how you would get a 251 as wehr so it never gets obsolete (esp with the proposed med crate changes). If you want AA for the late game, you should invest similarly to other armies in price and pop.
27 Sep 2020, 17:36 PM
#239
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Alright. Then put it this way for a second. How much more muni\mp\pop-cap\fuel one must invest to get at least same level of perfomance against air? Sure you might argue that thouse other units, wont be used exculively as AA units, neither Quad can be used only as AA unit.
If as Ost\OKW one spamming thunderbolts, I need at least 2 to 3 deducated AA units to counter this, without taking any damage, if I play as soviet and axis spam Overwatch assault\CAS I need 1 Quad. Feel the difference.
Sure it comes later and has smaller window of usage, but it just as good as any other sametype unit when left to protect flanks or provide inf support. Not to mention that you always can use M5 as mobile reinforcement platform and when too much AT hits the field up it to quad and park it somewhere to competly deny all Air based abilities and eat up free vet.
Your list is good, but still not a single unit in this list can counter Air as quad can do. Even dedicated static AA implacements, have worst perfomance then quad. It doesnt change the fact that 1 AA unit, rufly perform as ~2-3 more expensive AA units in its role. Because ... its not a tank, it doesnt have crew and smoke.
Pretty much bringing absolutely irrelevant unit stats, not considering cost\pop-cap and hell even how much air based abilities opponent army has.
Things like pintle MGs or 222 are not something to rely on, considering Air units dont have HP, meaning that pintle and 222 are just small RNG bonus with a small chance to shot air down, you cant realistically rely on that.
27 Sep 2020, 18:32 PM
#240
Posts: 5279
#stalinwept
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