Allied INF Team Games

Well, I have tested it myself, well something similar to dispute the claim that the kuble is useless... Unless the men on a maxim are stronger than a rifle despite their larger target size and lower rof imma call bullshit.

did the kubel won? show us a vid/ proof

my intention was: OKW lack any good anti MG mechanic for early game. its super easy to push back okw when you play smart with your mgs and see what comes from flanks. okw is in trouble than. that why you have no nice time on lane maps when u have only okw in your team. you have no smoke, no sniper, no mortar, no mg, no carrier, and your kubel is not able to win a fight vs a flanked mg crew

For 3v3 and 4v4 on the narrow maps I could see this, but then if you are not super unlucky you will have team mates to help you out and can always drop your lane to reinforce somewhere else for a double push, which will give you map control somewhere else. Additionally, large modes tend to have less cut offs so even if the OKW lane goes shitty the faction will make it easily to their indirect and flame nades. If you make it past the early game then the Maxim built will become utterly useless.
In 1v1 and all except for maybe 2 maps in 2v2, flanking is always possible.

Also the Maxim suppression is so low that it can't do anything against units in green cover. Once the SOV faction loses a position, it is gone for good since Volks all have sandbags.

did the kubel won? show us a vid/ proof

You can also always upload your video showing that, since you made the initial claim.

You can also always upload your video showing that, since you made the initial claim.

we both know that the kubel will lose to a mg crew when driving around the mg cone and try to kill the crew...

we both know that the kubel will lose to a mg crew when driving around the mg cone and try to kill the crew...

Then you will have absolutely no problem at all supporting your claim with a quick series of tests through cheatmod on a test map and uploading it for us to see and admit you were right.

As usual this should be in strategy forum, not balance forum...

The solution is already in your OP. :-)

Grens are not supposed to beat rifles, Volks are not supposed to beat IS at long range.

But... sturmpio are supposed to beat everything at close range, pio flamer is supposed to beat garrisons, mg42 is best mg, Wehr mortar is best mortar. StGs for Volks come early then they are supposed to beat things before enemy gets upgrades.

I agree Wehr is objectively harder to play but if you learn decent combined arms play and good MG micro, and coordinate with your teammates, early inf spam is very counterable, that's literally the base design of the game.

we both know that the kubel will lose to a mg crew when driving around the mg cone and try to kill the crew...

Don't try to pull me into this.
All weapon crews are shit at fighting by design. If the maxim crew is different, it is an oversight. Not saying it cannot be the case, but since it is mot supposed to be that way and I never experienced a strong maxim crew in game, I asked you for a video or at least some data from tests how many models the Kubel kills before it has to retreat or something

Don't try to pull me into this.
All weapon crews are shit at fighting by design. If the maxim crew is different, it is an oversight. Not saying it cannot be the case, but since it is mot supposed to be that way and I never experienced a strong maxim crew in game, I asked you for a video or at least some data from tests how many models the Kubel kills before it has to retreat or something

im on work...but..you can even calc this pretty easy:

maxim model make 16 dmg per shell. They will hit a kubel everytime since it has target size 14.

5models x 16dmg = 80dmg in one salve.

now the question:
how long will the crew model need to bring down a kubel? It isnt this hard.


the OP on maxim crew model vs kubel is the 16dmg per shot. half it to 8 and all good.

im on work...but..you can even calc this pretty easy:

maxim model make 16 dmg per shell. They will hit a kubel everytime since it has target size 14.

5models x 16dmg = 80dmg in one salve.

now the question:
how long will the crew model need to bring down a kubel? It isnt this hard.


the OP on maxim crew model vs kubel is the 16dmg per shot. half it to 8 and all good.

You do realize Kubel has more then 1 armor, right?
Or that it takes good couple of seconds between the shots as weapon crews take AGES to shoot their rifles?

Also, you've said previously:

we both know that the kubel will lose to a mg crew when driving around the mg cone and try to kill the crew...

The moment maxim gun moves to turn, engagement is over, you have won, no discussion, because volks who couldn't move in now have a free reign.


Give us the replay or stop spewing bullshit already.

You do realize Kubel has more then 1 armor, right?
Or that it takes good couple of seconds between the shots as weapon crews take AGES to shoot their rifles?

Also, you've said previously:

The moment maxim gun moves to turn, engagement is over, you have won, no discussion, because volks who couldn't move in now have a free reign.


Give us the replay or stop spewing bullshit already.

kubel has 3/1.9 armor. u often show the rear from the kubel when u try to shot on crew from side, because of the map design. so befor the kubel can shot the first time on the crew it get mostly 1-2 salves already.
the maxim dont need to move. it can sit there and defend vs volks and the maxim crew kill the kubel alone. calc it yourself. i will make a vid in the evening

You know, it'd be much easier if you just did a video instead of excel stat sheeting..

kubel has 3/1.9 armor. u often show the rear from the kubel when u try to shot on crew from side, because of the map design. so befor the kubel can shot the first time on the crew it get mostly 1-2 salves already.
the maxim dont need to move. it can sit there and defend vs volks and the maxim crew kill the kubel alone. calc it yourself. i will make a vid in the evening

Ok.
Where is the replay?
I still see nothing uploaded on your profile.

Its so obvious and reliable, why are you struggling so much to produce 60 seconds of replay?
And yes, kubel will lose if you are driving it around the crew like a circus monkey on a bike.

Front armour gives it a good chance of simply deflecting, and even the rear armour has a good shot at that (unless I'm mistaken, the calc is still pen/armour x100, so 1/1.9 is still only a ~52% chance to pen). At 240 effective health (192 base, has a 0.8 damage received modifier as per patch notes), even if all 5 shots hit and pen, it needs 4 full salvos to do so.

Cooldown for maxim crew is 0.31 - 0.44 at 4 distance, 1.25 - 1.75 at 5-20 distance, and 2.34 - 3.28 at 21-35 distance. Kubelwagon has sight range 50 and gun range 35, so it can comfortably engage the maxim at any distance it's allowed to by virtue of the map. Accuracy is 0.7/0.55/0.35 (at ranges 5/25/35 respectively) so against the target size 1.25 crew members, any of those ranges are pretty good for it since it compensates the accuracy loss with rather large increased cooldown on the maxim crew (its own cooldowns aren't as punishing comparatively at 0.94 - 1.31/1.25 - 1.75/1.88 - 2.63). Ideally it wants to be at mid or far, which isn't hard when near is 5 range.

I did a real quick and dirty run (replay attached) a couple times over, even giving benefits like yellow cover, side angled shots, and even a scenario where the kubel had to rotate 180 before firing (potentially simulating the kubel having to spend time getting into position around the cone first), giving the maxim crew a free salvo - it won all engagements, by a decent margin. Sure, this isn't a definitive, since I only tested a few times, but the engagements are weighed towards the maxim in 2 of the 3 engagements and it still loses handily.

•  
  

  0

  VS

  Aphyria

  CPU - Hard

  10

  Kubel v Maxim Test

  by: Aphyria map: Crossroads

  1

  -

P.S. - yes, I know the replay is awkward, I've barely used cheatmod but even I couldn't stand the idea of someone trying to claim that a kubel can't beat a maxim crew and actually getting away with it lol.

...

Thank you random lurker

Front armour gives it a good chance of simply deflecting, and even the rear armour has a good shot at that (unless I'm mistaken, the calc is still pen/armour x100, so 1/1.9 is still only a ~52% chance to pen). At 240 effective health (192 base, has a 0.8 damage received modifier as per patch notes), even if all 5 shots hit and pen, it needs 4 full salvos to do so.

Cooldown for maxim crew is 0.31 - 0.44 at 4 distance, 1.25 - 1.75 at 5-20 distance, and 2.34 - 3.28 at 21-35 distance. Kubelwagon has sight range 50 and gun range 35, so it can comfortably engage the maxim at any distance it's allowed to by virtue of the map. Accuracy is 0.7/0.55/0.35 (at ranges 5/25/35 respectively) so against the target size 1.25 crew members, any of those ranges are pretty good for it since it compensates the accuracy loss with rather large increased cooldown on the maxim crew (its own cooldowns aren't as punishing comparatively at 0.94 - 1.31/1.25 - 1.75/1.88 - 2.63). Ideally it wants to be at mid or far, which isn't hard when near is 5 range.

I did a real quick and dirty run (replay attached) a couple times over, even giving benefits like yellow cover, side angled shots, and even a scenario where the kubel had to rotate 180 before firing (potentially simulating the kubel having to spend time getting into position around the cone first), giving the maxim crew a free salvo - it won all engagements, by a decent margin. Sure, this isn't a definitive, since I only tested a few times, but the engagements are weighed towards the maxim in 2 of the 3 engagements and it still loses handily.

•  
  

  0

  VS

  Aphyria

  CPU - Hard

  10

  Kubel v Maxim Test

  by: Aphyria map: Crossroads

  1

  -

P.S. - yes, I know the replay is awkward, I've barely used cheatmod but even I couldn't stand the idea of someone trying to claim that a kubel can't beat a maxim crew and actually getting away with it lol.

Thanks for putting the work in. I knew it was so due to similar testing though I hadn't tested specifically with the maxim. Something I noticed wasn't accounted for in your description was the focus fire mechanic. If memory serves focus fire is off on the kuble which means even misses have a chance to reroll on another model and take advantage of that huge target size again.

Or, you know.... just ignore Ullumullu? He's a major league Axis troll.

snip

Third test was pretty close though, and also in the second they got very decent damage in. Also on your 180° turning test, I think the crew did not get much damage in (only watched it once though).

So I did some testing as well and have to say ullumullu is not entirely wrong. If the Maxim catches a short burst while traversing through the cone and the models manage to hit the rear armor a couple of times, it can get a little dicey for the Kübel. I did 8 tests myself with the Kübel usually catching a small burst of the Maxim, then parking outside the cone at short to mid range and shooting. Kübel lost in one case where I drove past the crew to allow for rear armor hits, in two others he still won despite that but it was close. Also when parked at very short range, it could get a bit tough. When handled somewhat properly however and mostly front armor is shown, Kübel did a decent job. I can't say too much about range dependency, but I think the shorter the range the better for the crew, at least that would also be supported by the DPS calculator site.

In all cases however I'd say it is impossible to lose your Kübel to a Maxim crew since you can always reverse out and even if the crew won they suffered a lot. I agree on the case that Kübel is not a go-to counter for pushing up face to face and expect to win, so if there are very laney sections like Poltawa or Angermünde, Kübel might indeed not fare very well at least in these specific scenario.

But claiming that the Maxim could fend off both a flanking Kübel plus a frontal Volks squad is exaggerated, unless the OKW player is an idiot and charges with the Volks squad until it is suppressed before supporting with the Kübel. This combination will force a retreat unless you REALLY want to gamble with your Maxim.

Look here: It is not possible to win with kubel vs a maxim 1v1.
https://youtu.be/TNGS81s7ABg?t=7

yes the maxim move...and this means you can dive in with a volks. but this would mean 2 units vs 1.

A 2 unit (Kubel + volks) vs 2 unit (maxim + pio) is a lose for okw.


Let me specify the context:

Kubel is not a anti MG mechanic

Yes, it win in a standalone fight with maxim crew.

The think is, this doesnt mean its a valid anti mg mechanic for OKW.

Because: even in a 1v1 a mg is never alone.

THis means there is support. even a added sov pio is enough to kill the kubel very fast. but the only chance to get off the mg is to come in range of it.
So where is now the good anti MG mechanic for okw? An anti mg mechanic is
- a mortar: it outrange a mg. no big risk for you
- smoke: it deny supression from mg and give you the chance to flank it savely
- sniper : outrange mg. no big risk
- carrier: give a good chance to get behind the mg and kill the crew very fast, without losing your own units ( like m3) unless AT or at nades are near
- and so one

a kubel is denied by any other support in near, which means you cant push a mg covered postion as OKW early.

Look here: It is not possible to win with kubel vs a maxim 1v1.
https://youtu.be/TNGS81s7ABg?t=7

yes the maxim move...and this means you can dive in with a volks. but this would mean 2 units vs 1.

A 2 unit (Kubel + volks) vs 2 unit (maxim + pio) is a lose for okw.


Let me specify the context:

Kubel is not a anti MG mechanic

Yes, it win in a standalone fight with maxim crew.

The think is, this doesnt mean its a valid anti mg mechanic for OKW.

Because: even in a 1v1 a mg is never alone.

THis means there is support. even a added sov pio is enough to kill the kubel very fast. but the only chance to get off the mg is to come in range of it.
So where is now the good anti MG mechanic for okw? An anti mg mechanic is
- a mortar: it outrange a mg. no big risk for you
- smoke: it deny supression from mg and give you the chance to flank it savely
- sniper : outrange mg. no big risk
- carrier: give a good chance to get behind the mg and kill the crew very fast, without losing your own units ( like m3) unless AT or at nades are near
- and so one

a kubel is denied by any other support in near, which means you cant push a mg covered postion as OKW early.

Yeah but thats not what you were arguing....

Yeah but thats not what you were arguing....

Why? i said the kubel is not a valid anti mg mechanic...it even lose a 1v1 fight clearly.
yes..when u have a kubel and volks vs an alone maxim..you can win..oh wonder.

if only one sov pio is there..you lose. so no: kubel is not...AGAIN..a valid anti mg mechanic

3. kubel is killed by mg crew models alone before it is possible to get a MG crew retreat. u can test it by yourself, install the game and flank a maxim crew and try to kill it with kubel...kubel will lose. ...

This was the claim. This claim has been proven false because the it was a bullshit claim made from the depths of your arse. Moving goalposts doesn't work well when there is a paper trail....

Also as per your newest comment, why is the soviet player allowed to support their maxim to make it a win for them but the okw isn't allowed to support their kuble?
Its a 210mp recon car... It's not going to fight off the soviet union on its own any better than an Mg will beat one while the shoot end is facing another direction.