Time to talk about ml20.

we all have lucky moments with something like arty, right?

i got so many KT, elefants, panthers, Jagdtigers, blobbs etc with B4 that i would choose this unit as the best arty out there...most boom for one click. its like a Sturmtiger shell hitting your units ...while the B4 can be spamed and are pretty cheap and has much more range than a sturmtiger...cant be evade...have no big warning...its the perfect cheese unit

This is not about B4. This is about ML20. Even if it were about B4. It fires one shot and as @Grim said... it's a meme unit. Sure it can sometimes be good but the whole unit is RNG heavy, whereas LeFH is pretty straightforward a good investment. It's not one or two good games, when LeFH is out I never even try to recrew pak howits and even take extra good care to move around scotts constantly when they fire. LeFH is by no means OP, it does it's job correctly. Counter Barrage is a cheese ability, but that's it.

I've seen maybe one good B4 hit, and that was when the youtube algorithm recommended skippy stream even though I never watch other people play. Skippy's ally had 2 B4s and in the whole game (57 min I believe), 2v2, UKF + SOV vs OKW + OST, two soviet B4s landed only one good shot. Everything else was either close, complete miss or just scatter miss on static OKW structures. And I remember the soviet firing the B4s constantly when they were off CD. So in all of those shots, only one good connect that wiped 2 squads and damaged a tank (blob alert).

Can't really compare B4s one shot vs LeFH constant barrage.

Again, this thread is about ML20 and as such is underperforming in most scenarios except vs completely static positions. Whether ML20 should be buffed or comparing arty be nerfed is beyond me. I admit I could not balance it as I never ever use arty and am usually a victim of it but can't really complain. All the times I tried to use arty I either had bad luck calls or straight up scatter misses if you get my point (you barrage the correct area but as luck would have it, shells land on all the places except the ones that have something in it).

EDIT: forgot to mention that one LeFH in base decrewed the B4 about 7 times if I'm not mistaken and put the hurt on surrounding units of B4.

One large problem for the ML20 is the number of doctrines with recon + off map.

-Close Air support
Recon pass, stuka dive bomb

-Jaeger Armor Doctrine
Recon overflight, Stuka Dive bomb

-Joint Operations
Recon overflight, light artillery +pak43 +lefh 18

-Luftwaffe Supply
Recon overflight, Stuka Bombing

-Spearhead Doctrine
Recon overflight, Fragmentation Bombs

-Storm Doctrine
Smoke Bombs, Stuka Dive Bomb +Lefh18

These six doctrines can hard counter the ML20

Soviets Recon plus off map

-Anti infantry
Recon, incendiary arty

-Soviet Combined Arms Army
Recon, Il2 +ML20

That is it

I would say the best buff to the ML 20 is to first address the Recon + Off maps first.

Recon and off maps should be exclusive regardless off the state of the ml-20.

I feel like all Soviet dedicated artillery; the M-41 Mortar, the Katyusha, the ML-20; have all suffered from the removal of the Precision Strike ability. While it was a cheesy and poorly thought out ability, it was the only reason most of these were used, the ability carried these units.

The M-41 and ML-20 should both be given a Zeroing Barrage at Vet 1 where the scatter becomes tighter and tighter with each shot round, until the last one round which acts similar to the Precision Strike.

I can't actually remind a [equal] game where stationary howitzers haven't died under offmap bombs. They aren't OP or UP, they are useless because are always hardcountered.

Ægion.
axis has few arty/mortar units that you need as allies, dedicated arty to counter, on the other hand, the allies has a fair few more different mortar/arty units to counter, and i suppose thats why there are so many recon+offmap for OST compared to soviets, and parking a soviet AA Quad next to arty is very cheap and effective, and in many cases makes recon useless for vision needed off-maps.
But i see your point there is a mismatch between them.
but i feel that OST needs their recon more?

-Anti infantry
Recon, incendiary arty

That one is a push too as it will be re crewed instantly.

Ægion.
axis has few arty/mortar units that you need as allies, dedicated arty to counter, on the other hand, the allies has a fair few more different mortar/arty units to counter, and i suppose thats why there are so many recon+offmap for OST compared to soviets, and parking a soviet AA Quad next to arty is very cheap and effective, and in many cases makes recon useless for vision needed off-maps.
But i see your point there is a mismatch between them.
but i feel that OST needs their recon more?

Issue is AA is not always reasonable. They are prone to RNG like everything else in the game. Additionally, there is a reason why Storm is used more often than Joint Operations in team games. The smoke bombs aircraft can not be easily shot down to stop vision, in fact rarely. You of course only need a brief moment to call in an ability. Changing these abilities can also help diversify doctrines. Replacing the stuka dive bomb in Storm Doctrine such as Stormtroopers would make Stormtroopers a good camouflage spotting unit for the Lefh 18s, and help with the name of Storm Doctrine. Joint Operations doctrine could and can use the recon to spot for the left 18 to increase its accuracy. Jaeger Armor already have spotting scopes so why does it need Recon? By removing recon for this doctrine, it allows another option to engage the Elephant. ML20's and others can do well in forcing back the elephant if it gets direct hits as well its supporting elephants.

The problem with the ML20, is that it usually does not make an impact before it dies. My philosophy right now is that Cannon arty and Rocket arty should be different. One is for more sustain the other should be for saturation.

Note I do have a mod that address most of the design issues I have with the game. Just check the signature below.

That one is a push too as it will be re crewed instantly.

Exactly

IMO stuka bomb strike is the biggest issue, since it destroys the thing completely and if you pair it with recon, ML20 becomes a big waste of resources.

IMO the biggest offender here is Jaeger Armor, because it has ele with (!) spotting scope on top of the recon+stuka combo. You nerf the doctrine and ML20 might have more chance.

concerning Jaeger doc, its perhaps not balanced properly, but as the current meta is, it needs it, and many players like me, feel punished if we don't go that doctrine, something else needs to be balanced before this doc gets balanced.

and regarding the 3 static arty pieces, everyone of them can be killed with offmap/dives etc.
static arties is always a risk, just like everything else in the game.

but the big question here is how we make the ML-20 great again

concerning Jaeger doc, its perhaps not balanced properly, but as the current meta is, it needs it, and many players like me, feel punished if we don't go that doctrine, something else needs to be balanced before this doc gets balanced.

and regarding the 3 static arty pieces, every one of them can be killed with offmap/dives etc.
static arties is always a risk, just like everything else in the game.

but the big question here is how we make the ML-20 great again

When u want to make it great again, means you make it more usefully for players than going into the actually meta.
Which means allies have actually the arty advantage in their hand. (mobile arty platforms + massive better offmaps options)

Question 1: would be great again if it would be a exact clone from lefh? no it wouldnt...because other allies arty options are better and the sov player would even go into ISU after this patch.


SO this means ML20 must be even more better and more attractive than a LEFH. For example, it gets brace or something.

this leads to:
Question 2: Why should it better than a lEFH? wouldnt it be more fair to bring down other allies arty option more in down, so the ML20 would be more attravtive? Actually when the allies team decided to go deep into arty spam combined with alot of AT then axis is fu ked up...because u need panthers or something into their backlines to bring down their artys.


Dont make ML20 great again...nerv other arty options like a priest/secton must stand 15sec after shooting. or somehting...so it can be countert.

I like the gymnastics of nerfing unis from other allied factions which would somehow magically make people use the ML20.

It's a compound problem. As long as the most popular commander get's access to recon + offmap or offmap capable of 1 shotting them, static Howitzers remain less viable.

If the ML20 is supposed to be inferior AI wise than the LEFH and probably the Katyusha, then it should fulfil or have some other niche role or characteristic.

In the same way we gave the PW suppression, i think giving it some temporal debuffs against vehicles should be worth trying.

I like the gymnastics of nerfing unis from other allied factions which would somehow magically make people use the ML20.

It's a compound problem. As long as the most popular commander get's access to recon + offmap or offmap capable of 1 shotting them, static Howitzers remain less viable.

If the ML20 is supposed to be inferior AI wise than the LEFH and probably the Katyusha, then it should fulfil or have some other niche role or characteristic.

In the same way we gave the PW suppression, i think giving it some temporal debuffs against vehicles should be worth trying.

think about it. why would u choose a ML20 with temp. debuff on verhicles..when u have better options in the commander loadout which are even better? why would u choose a static arty when your teammates have acces to mobile arty which cant be countert per click and you fill a role as 70 range wiper or other stuff? why would u go a ML20 and dont let your teammates choose much better option than this static stuff? u can do it...bit after the 5. ML20 gets destroyed and your teammates say: let me go arty...i have a mobile one...you can go other nice meme stuff...u go this way...becasue its much more efffective.

In teamgames its all about composition and play with the own strongness...not the weakness.

think about it. why would u choose a ML20 with temp. debuff on verhicles..when u have better options in the commander loadout which are even better? why would u choose a static arty when your teammates have acces to mobile arty which cant be countert per click and you fill a role as 70 range wiper or other stuff? why would u go a ML20 and dont let your teammates choose much better option than this static stuff? u can do it...bit after the 5. ML20 gets destroyed and your teammates say: let me go arty...i have a mobile one...you can go other nice meme stuff...u go this way...becasue its much more efffective.

In teamgames its all about composition and play with the own strongness...not the weakness.

Why would you ever use X unit when the other faction has the POSSIBILITY to go Y unit which is better. Cost opportunity.

Not every USF/UKF player is gonna go Priest or Sexton commanders.

Why would anyone ever bother getting a Stug, if OKW has JPIV. Why bother getting a T34, when UKF can get a Comet.
That's the kind of logic you are applying here.

Regarding Howitzer vs Mobile artillery, let's also ignore the fuel cost discrepancy between both. Yeah, when you have infinite fuel, suddenly mobile Howitzer/Rocket are more attractive as well.

think about it. why would u choose a ML20 with temp. debuff on verhicles..when u have better options in the commander loadout which are even better? why would u choose a static arty when your teammates have acces to mobile arty which cant be countert per click and you fill a role as 70 range wiper or other stuff? why would u go a ML20 and dont let your teammates choose much better option than this static stuff? u can do it...bit after the 5. ML20 gets destroyed and your teammates say: let me go arty...i have a mobile one...you can go other nice meme stuff...u go this way...becasue its much more efffective.

In teamgames its all about composition and play with the own strongness...not the weakness.

Even If I want to go ML20 it is a stupid decision, thus detrimental to the victory, because of recon + stuka on meta commanders. Keep in mind that there are a lot of SU doctrines with ML20.
Also the reason behind not picking ISU is the same why people don't pick ele with scope, recon and stuka - it is boring and cheesy.

I'd like to look at removing recon+ off map commander abilities being in the same doctrine before we look at changing the ml-20. I feel like a lot of balance can be achieved just by not having do it all commanders that fully counter entire units.

Ml20 is really good against okw. Good against their structures and they have less capability of deleting it with an off-map

+1 to making recon and offmap exclusive though. At least make them work together for it in team games, rather than just one person hoarding muni

Is the fact that OST has so many recon+offmap due to OST lacking a cheap,durable and quick scouting option non-doc? soviet, OKW and brit get cheap and durable options for finding/killing whats behind enemy lines, (don't count the stuart as it is rather slow?)puma,t70 and aec. all those need 3 shots to get taken down.
If OST was given a similar non-doc unit to get the job done, perhaps it would be time to discuss the excess of recon+offmap commanders?

perhaps at t3-t4 give the 222 the option to upgrade to give it more hp/armour like the USF m20?
just a thought

Is the fact that OST has so many recon+offmap due to OST lacking a cheap,durable and quick scouting option non-doc? soviet, OKW and brit get cheap and durable options for finding/killing whats behind enemy lines, (don't count the stuart as it is rather slow?)puma,t70 and aec. all those need 3 shots to get taken down.
If OST was given a similar non-doc unit to get the job done, perhaps it would be time to discuss the excess of recon+offmap commanders?

perhaps at t3-t4 give the 222 the option to upgrade to give it more hp/armour like the USF m20?
just a thought

You do realize that M20 is NOT more durable then 222? It takes the exact same 2 AT shots to take it down.
Also, 222 IS your scouting option that also serves as cheap, but effective AA unit.
Oh and T-70 is less effective scout then 222.