Last time I've used it was still when KV-1 was call-in.
As already aforementioned, it got replaced by SU-85, because there is no reason for 76 when you have 85 already unlocked.
And yes, it did worked flawlessly when it made sense to do it.
Unless you are talking 2v2 double soviets with one player getting 2 su76, and one player getting a kv1, which im fairly sure vipper is primarily focused on 1v1...
This is utter nonsense.
As soon as Su76 lost the free barrage, they lost the only real advantage they had over the su85, and they dropped off the meta regardless of the supporting tanks. Losing their long range pentration further pushed them away from the meta.
Besides, it was never really kv1+su76, it was always KV-8 and su-76, a combination viable due to attributes not present on the KV1.
Not only that, the change to being built instead of called in occurred BEFORE the buffs to its recieved damage and the hulldown ability got added. Like we are talking very old school KV1s, the craptacular excuse for a "heavy tank" with gimped machine guns and secure mode ability.
Don't trash vipper for not "playing strats" when you pretend like there's a unit combination thats still used today but is dubious in its efficacy and years old if it even existed.
Let's start with adding utility instead of Stat changes to the su76. The AT overlap makes it a shakey road to turning back into spam to win. And for the love of fuck turn that stupid +20 damage into +40 so it follows the same damn damage formula as everything else. Seriously who thought 140 damage has a place?
Smoke barrage would go a long way especially with T1 builds. The utility of it being a zis/ mortar hybrid could prove enough to garner attention
I'm so fed up of people repeating that, I'm going to lift next one who says it using just one, middle finger and guess where I'll stick it in to keep the individual stable while lifting?
No, but seriously: Don't you think that citing a meta unit from at least 1-2 years ago (if not even more) might not work anymore today?
Stats have not changed all that much for units in question.
But its not the unit stats that made the combo fall out of use, it was binding the KV-1 to tier 4, which removed only reason to ever go for SU-76 over 85 if you are not being roflstomped to the point where you can't afford T4 before opponents meds roll out.
Also to make this work you must already be winning the game, otherwise there's no way you have 50-80% more resources lying around than your opponent.
That is not relevant, because as I've already said, that combination became completely invalid the moment KV-1 was bound to T4 with SU-85 completely overshadowing 76 as a viable pick.
SU-76 is completely unneeded for its timing and is completely redundant where it could be useful.
Again, unless its going to get complete rework, it will never be used again with call-ins gone.
You all seem to be arguing despite all ultimately agreeing:
There's nothing the SU-76 is needed for before the SU-85 is available, and once the SU-85 is available there's no need for the SU-76.
Which is a Problem. Rather THE problem. Tuning the su85 towards heavy Armour and having the su76 for lights and mediums (have an upgrade to full damage once t4 is built?) and indirect support would have room for both units.
You all seem to be arguing despite all ultimately agreeing:
There's nothing the SU-76 is needed for before the SU-85 is available, and once the SU-85 is available there's no need for the SU-76.
Thats why i did suggest move su-85 further away in timings and resources, while SU-76 fully turn to light TD against mediums adn make t-34 available sooner. Problem in big time and resource gap between SU T3 and T4. SU-76 comes now really early in time when you don't need them and they also delay entire T4 tier with all 3 crucial armor units (and 7-th cons too). If this timings will be making shorte it can bring su-76 in-game without big rebalancing and alos make from su-85 TD against top-tier axis armor, not against mediums.
Which is a Problem. Rather THE problem. Tuning the su85 towards heavy Armour and having the su76 for lights and mediums (have an upgrade to full damage once t4 is built?) and indirect support would have room for both units.
That sort of anti-medium/anti-heavy split doesn't work. CoH 2's armies are very small, which heavily favours generalists.
The SU-85 is already heavily specialised: it's an expensive, cumbersome, easily flanked casemate that can't inflict any manpower bleed.
If you specialise the SU-85 and SU-76 to the point where you need both, you'll get neither. You'll get ZiS guns.
That sort of anti-medium/anti-heavy split doesn't work. CoH 2's armies are very small, which heavily favours generalists.
The SU-85 is already heavily specialised: it's an expensive, cumbersome, easily flanked casemate that can't inflict any manpower bleed.
If you specialise the SU-85 and SU-76 to the point where you need both, you'll get neither. You'll get ZiS guns.
oh..u mean..like jp4 and panther? j4 is only good vs low armor targets...and is an only anti armor verhicle without any AI and for lategame armor u need a panther to have a chance to penetrate. do u mean exactly this case from OKW?
oh..u mean..like jp4 and panther? j4 is only good vs low armor targets...and is an only anti armor verhicle without any AI and for lategame armor u need a panther to have a chance to penetrate. do u mean exactly this case from OKW?
Yes and no.
Most of the time, the JPIV/Panther split isn't an anti-medium/anti-heavy split. Two of the three Allied factions have no doctrinal heavy armour, and both units are capable against medium armour.
The difference that makes the split work is playstyle: the Panther is a dive tank, the JPIV is a defensive casemate. They fit into different strategies but counter the same stuff.
When you introduce enemy heavy armour, it becomes an anti-medium/anti-heavy split and stops working. The JPIV becomes an unsafe investment (because a 140 FU AT specialist needs to pull its weight) so you just get Panthers.
Similarly, the SU-76 and SU-85 need a difference in playstyle to coexist. Both are casemates, so that can't happen if they're both dedicated AT units.
JP4 is good for hunting allied tank destroyers. It gets camo and health with vet, has decent initial sight. Don't get why it has such a bad reputation. Also there are very few units that JP4 can't deal with reliably, since, only brits gets chunky bois. And since allied heavies fallen out of meta it became more attractive then before. Although it is a little bit expensive. Perhaps its armor and sight are to blame. Still a niche pick, especially if you are able to build a panther, but I quite like it in 2v2s
I've addressed that already, go read my post again, but this time last longer then just 1st sentence.
You are either extremely confused or don't pay any attention to what is being said, because you keep repeating points that were already covered and debunked.
Sorry, forgot that it is ill-advised to answer you. Won't make this mistake again
That sort of anti-medium/anti-heavy split doesn't work. CoH 2's armies are very small, which heavily favours generalists.
The SU-85 is already heavily specialised: it's an expensive, cumbersome, easily flanked casemate that can't inflict any manpower bleed.
If you specialise the SU-85 and SU-76 to the point where you need both, you'll get neither. You'll get ZiS guns.
The split specialists don't work if that's all they bring to the table. A medium counter and a heavy counter are cumbersome. That's why the added utility for the su76 so that once you need to transition into heavy AT the unit retains some battlefield value. Additionally, if it was more or less a zis on tracks combined with a mortar it would synergize well with t1 that lacks both of those things. Utility to provide the scaling that raw firepower makes OP is the key I believe.
The split specialists don't work if that's all they bring to the table. A medium counter and a heavy counter are cumbersome. That's why the added utility for the su76 so that once you need to transition into heavy AT the unit retains some battlefield value. Additionally, if it was more or less a zis on tracks combined with a mortar it would synergize well with t1 that lacks both of those things. Utility to provide the scaling that raw firepower makes OP is the key I believe.
Problem with utility of SU-76 are T-70 and T4. Now T-70 can deal with LV and infantry. You don't need anything apart from t-70. I really can't imagine what kind of "utility" you want to add to SU-76 to make it playable. It's already "less zis on wheels" , but it never used in T1 because delay your T4 with all 3 crucial armor units and don't provide feild control. No one in sane will be build su-76 to then faces with angry P4, because right in the moment as you build SU-76 to counter P4, axis will get +75 fuel "gandicap". No any su-85, t-34, 7-th cons, no unlock for heavies don't arrive next 165 fuel or roughly 7 minutes (24 fuel in minute medium value if you have half map under control). Even lonely t-34 now better counter against P4, because give you at least mobility and good firepower aginst soft targets.
If you go to T1 much safer choice play defensive doctrine with 2 baby-at guns neither build su-76 to counter mediums. You don't delay your crucial tier, you don't lost field pressure because T-70 and you can survive until T4 will be deployed.
I already told main problem with SU-76 and su-85 lays in timing. SU-76 comes very early when you don't really need it. While right in the moment you build T4 you can start build SU-85 - proper hardcounter to any axis armor and forget about T3 units entirely. Time of life of T3 is 165 fuel (T-70+T4). Time of life for T4 - all the rest time of game. Time of life T0 - whole game, T1 - whole game (if you play through penals). Time of life T2 - whole game.
Compare to OST tiers where T4 is bonus tier with "premium" armor. You can play against SU T4 with OH T3 (P4s and stugs). WHile make it with SU T3 impossible. It makes SU T4 crucial tier for play. No T4-no victory.
Part of power SU T4 must be split. Make one earlier, while move other further away to "premium" segment. Like OST T4 works. It also could solve problem with su-85 spam. Especially if su-85 will be redesigned accordingly.
Maybe just making the barrage free again will help give it some utility. It won't be a hard-AT unit, it won't be a StuG E, it won't be replacing the T-70. It'll just be something you can grab one or two of to barrage enemy lines, and it's mediocre AT let's it defend itself slightly.
Maybe just making the barrage free again will help give it some utility. It won't be a hard-AT unit, it won't be a StuG E, it won't be replacing the T-70. It'll just be something you can grab one or two of to barrage enemy lines, and it's mediocre AT let's it defend itself slightly.
We already had this. Bad idea. Endless barrages of multiple su-76. Katies for poors. While potent to kill tanks. When su-76 got AI potent it become spammable. You can't counter them by ATG or infantry.
Maybe just making the barrage free again will help give it some utility. It won't be a hard-AT unit, it won't be a StuG E, it won't be replacing the T-70. It'll just be something you can grab one or two of to barrage enemy lines, and it's mediocre AT let's it defend itself slightly.
yeah...no. It was nobrainer...since this shit hold even p4 back when spamed and killed all the squads and team weapons like hell.
We already had this. Bad idea. Endless barrages of multiple su-76. Katies for poors. While potent to kill tanks. When su-76 got AI potent it become spammable. You can't counter them by ATG or infantry.
Back when this was a thing barrage was a different ability. Now it does more health damage, but has far less wiping potential. Perhaps the CD should not be equal to Zis', but sufficient enough to maintain utility (e.g. 2x longer then zis').
Patch notes:
Few words about AT and why it is considered crap:
Pen and accuracy change patch notes
Before the pen nerf SU-76 had 100% to pen OST P4 frontal armor at long range, now it is 88% which is like 9 shots out of 10. VS P4J it is pretty much on a edge of uselessness with 3 shots out of 4 (77%) penned before and now it is almoust 2 out of 3 (68%). And keep in mind that it is not 4 shots kill like zis, but 6 (!).
So we have 280mp 75 Fuel unit with barrage CD 3X longer then Zis' with unreliable pen and low damage model. Perhaps the answer is not to buff it to being outright toxic, so people could tell horrible stories on forums of su76 hordes cheesing everything on its way, but at least be viable, for example like JP4. JP4 is not a must have unit, but it has its merits, unlike SU76. Because you'd better build another Zis gun then this abomination.
Before the pen nerf SU-76 had 100% to pen OST P4 frontal armor at long range, now it is 88% which is like 9 shots out of 10. VS P4J it is pretty much on a edge of uselessness with 3 shots out of 4 (77%) penned before and now it is almoust 2 out of 3 (68%). And keep in mind that it is not 4 shots kill like zis, but 6 (!).
So we have 280mp 75 Fuel unit with barrage CD 3X longer then Zis' with unreliable pen and low damage model. Perhaps the answer is not to buff it to being outright toxic, so people could tell horrible stories on forums of su76 hordes cheesing everything on its way, but at least be viable, for example like JP4. JP4 is not a must have unit, but it has its merits, unlike SU76. Because you'd better build another Zis gun then this abomination.
I already suggested improve stock damage of SU-76 to 160 when T4 is built. But lock SU-85 and katy further away in terms of timing and resources. Current pen and 160 damage is more than enough to fight against P4. While it still fragile "3 shots to die" thing. Good against mediums and lower, very bad choice against top-tier guys.Without AI it also could be easily counter by infantry and ATG. While smoke shot instead of HE barrage give few utility.
Problem of SU-76 is timing. T3 tier for soviets is barrier on the road to T4. While this position there is, no any chances to make SU-76 playable.
I already suggested improve stock damage of SU-76 to 160 when T4 is built. But lock SU-85 and katy further away in terms of timing and resources. Current pen and 160 damage is more than enough to fight against P4. While it still fragile "3 shots to die" thing. Good against mediums and lower, very bad choice against top-tier guys.Without AI it also could be easily counter by infantry and ATG. While smoke shot instead of HE barrage give few utility.
Problem of SU-76 is timing. T3 tier for soviets is barrier on the road to T4. While this position there is, no any chances to make SU-76 playable.
160 is way too much, especially with 60 range, perhaps if locked behind ability (+1/3 damage and 1/4 pen), but even this sounds way too drastic.
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