Are sections balanced?

So the balance team decided to use their old tactic of trying to not nerf an allied faction by changing something on paper, so they can try to "appease" their critics and say that they nerfed the section. While in reality, the nerf actually has little impact on gameplay. Absolutely nobody asked for a bolster timing nerf. But of course, the balance team thinks they're geniuses..... According to many Brit players, nobody goes for bolster that early in the game anyways. So this nerf is essentially a fake nerf.

The Brits used to be a cheese faction and early Brit sections was batshit OP. That was because Brits lacked a snare and the 222 was only 15 fuel. Well now they have a snare and it takes the same amount of fuel to get out an AEC as a 222 (unit and tech costs) and needless to say the AEC hardcounters a single 222, or 251/250/luchs for that matter. So what exactly are sections "compensating" for. Right now they have ZERO weaknesses. And not having a snare is hardly a weakness as you don't really need one since u have the AEC which invalidates all LVs that aren't called puma and the fact that sappers have snares now.

My proposal is make sections cost 280 and revert their moving DPS back to 30-35% as right now they've completely lost their flavor of being "static infantry."

Where's the "too weak". Make your survey fair and balanced bruh.

They have lots of weaknesses. When do I get snares baseline on Sections?

Also, static infantry would make sense... if UKF had NOT static non-doc infantry. They don't. Grens are ALSO static infantry, and are treated poorly.

Cost back to 280 is fair, bit the static theme was alway there, in form of the cover mechanic and non moving bren gun. 0.5 moving acc is just standard, far from actual mobile infantry like rifle and fusilier.

Cost back to 280 is fair, bit the static theme was alway there, in form of the cover mechanic and non moving bren gun. 0.5 moving acc is just standard, far from actual mobile infantry like rifle and fusilier.

Thats a nice way of saying i want the best of both worlds. infantry that do hav 0.5 mov acc dont have sections cover/stationary bonuses

Imo i think the bolster upgrade should perform much like it does on cons currently. It's an seperate upgrade for each squad and takes a single weapon slot. So you can go either 2 brens with 4 men or 1 bren with 5 men. Squads with bolster don't have that much firepower, and it locks the medic upgrade/pyrotechnics supplies out aswell so you'd have to decide on what squad gets what upgrade.

Should be a decent start.

Imo i think the bolster upgrade should perform much like it does on cons currently. It's an seperate upgrade for each squad and takes a single weapon slot. So you can go either 2 brens with 4 men or 1 bren with 5 men. Squads with bolster don't have that much firepower, and it locks the medic upgrade/pyrotechnics supplies out aswell so you'd have to decide on what squad gets what upgrade.

Should be a decent start.

I suggested something similar. Bolster should have to be upgraded at HQ as it is now but then each squad needs to pay 45-60 muni for the extra man and it would lock out a weapon slot. So you cant go double LMG 5 man and overall need a lot more muni invested into your infantry. That would slow down 5 man Section spam and mean overall less muni to spam on other abilities, mines or grenades.

5 model IS with upgrade are cheaper obers with more tools in the menue. So yeah...to strong for their pricetag

5 model IS with upgrade are cheaper obers with more tools in the menue. So yeah...to strong for their pricetag

IS: 270
Nades: 100/10
LMGs:150/15 +45m per one
Bolster: 150/35
Realistically add at least 84mp to divide as you won't have bolster before 3rd squad, ever.


Assumptions:
meta 4 squads, unrealistic assumption that all IS start at 5 man and you don't need that extra 28mp for at the very least 3 squads

That means:

370mp +90 muni +15fu investment on per squad basis with meta 4 squads of IS.
Realistically add at least 20 muni per squad for mekits or pyrotechnics.


Obers are 340 + how much was LMG? 80 or 60?


Teching is a matter of timing of the unit, not its actual cost, so stop running face first against that wall, you aren't going to break it.


In no world upgraded IS are cheaper then obers and mathematically, you're as wrong as it can humanely get.

Sections should get better veterancy.

Wehraboo IR, kindly add a “Sections UP” option to the poll.

Thats a nice way of saying i want the best of both worlds. infantry that do hav 0.5 mov acc dont have sections cover/stationary bonuses

Most Infantry that do have 0.5 moving acc have snare available for them, which section does not have. And the "cover bonus" which pp always whining about was actually debuff out of cover so they performance is worse on the move overall. My point is the static theme was still there.

Most Infantry that do have 0.5 moving acc have snare available for them, which section does not have. And the "cover bonus" which pp always whining about was actually debuff out of cover so they performance is worse on the move overall. My point is the static theme was still there.

Unit can move and still be in cover and benefit from "cover" status. Especially in the late battle field.

5 model IS with upgrade are cheaper obers with more tools in the menue. So yeah...to strong for their pricetag

snip

I have no idea what you guys are "calculating" there.
Tech cost calculations have been posted at least 3-4 times already. UKF can save resources by not going for side techs. Total tech cost (with side techs) as well as tech cost to mediums (with reasonable side techs) is similar for all factions in fuel but also not too far off in MP.

If you add the costs for side tech to the price of IS you get cheaper overall teching. But both of this is pretty arbitrary. But maybe that's something that you'd find in the spreadsheets that both of you seem to despise so much.

I have no idea what you guys are "calculating" there.
Tech cost calculations have been posted at least 3-4 times already. UKF can save resources by not going for side techs. Total tech cost (with side techs) as well as tech cost to mediums (with reasonable side techs) is similar for all factions in fuel but also not too far off in MP.

If you add the costs for side tech to the price of IS you get cheaper overall teching. But both of this is pretty arbitrary.

Ullu argues that fully upgraded IS cost less then obers.
They clearly do not.

As you said, side techs can be skipped, but they also affect one unit exclusively(ok, we can argue bolster on REs), so side tech inflates cost of the unit it supports.

We're not talking tech costs, we're talking specifically value of fully upgraded IS vs upgraded obers.

IS: 270
Nades: 100/10
LMGs:150/15 +45m per one
Bolster: 150/35
Realistically add at least 84mp to divide as you won't have bolster before 3rd squad, ever.


Assumptions:
meta 4 squads, unrealistic assumption that all IS start at 5 man and you don't need that extra 28mp for at the very least 3 squads

That means:

370mp +90 muni +15fu investment on per squad basis with meta 4 squads of IS.
Realistically add at least 20 muni per squad for mekits or pyrotechnics.


Obers are 340 + how much was LMG? 80 or 60?


Teching is a matter of timing of the unit, not its actual cost, so stop running face first against that wall, you aren't going to break it.


In no world upgraded IS are cheaper then obers and mathematically, you're as wrong as it can humanely get.

IS: 270mp
nades is a global upgrade....once u pay the price you have it. more sections = less price per section...when u calc that u have 4 IS sqauds ... its only 25/2,5 fuel per sqaud
LMG: same like nades: 37mp/ 3,7 fuel per squad
Bolster: the same again! 37mp/ 8fuel per squad

now obers: you need minimum 2 trucks, t2 and t4. this both alone cost around 200 fuel and no to forget the around 800 manpower. and how many obers will u get?? 4? no. mostly 1-2 sqauds. more of them would bleed you so much and let u alone with ONLY AI and half of your popcap is full.

Ullu argues that fully upgraded IS cost less then obers.
They clearly do not.

As you said, side techs can be skipped, but they also affect one unit exclusively(ok, we can argue bolster on REs), so side tech inflates cost of the unit it supports.

We're not talking tech costs, we're talking specifically value of fully upgraded IS vs upgraded obers.

This does not change anything.

If you do the scewed calculation and add all costs to infantry sections alone, then you cannot neglect that you get a super cheap teching with UKF. UKF's teching is only cheap because they need to buy side techs.
This is basically the same discussion as "Axis get everything for free". No they do not, as I, Vipper, Stug and others have shown multiple times now. Axis pay with their normal teching.

If you add side techs to the cost of infantry sections, then you need to add a partial amount of the normal tech costs to most of Axis infantry as well.

The main difference between the factions is the timing of those techs, not the amount of resources they need to put into them.

IS: 270mp
nades is a global upgrade....once u pay the price you have it. more sections = less price per section...when u calc that u have 4 IS sqauds ... its only 25/2,5 fuel per sqaud
LMG: same like nades: 37mp/ 3,7 fuel per squad
Bolster: the same again! 37mp/ 8fuel per squad

now obers: you need minimum 2 trucks, t2 and t4. this both alone cost around 200 fuel and no to forget the around 800 manpower. and how many obers will u get?? 4? no. mostly 1-2 sqauds. more of them would bleed you so much and let u alone with ONLY AI and half of your popcap is full.

No, just no.
You described the normal tech path of OKW. These are not costs that you need to sink into Obers AFTER you have already paid normal tech, this IS your normal tech.

If you try to do calculations, at least try to do them reasonably and comparably. And also check your OKW numbers because they are horribly far off.

I suggested something similar. Bolster should have to be upgraded at HQ as it is now but then each squad needs to pay 45-60 muni for the extra man and it would lock out a weapon slot. So you cant go double LMG 5 man and overall need a lot more muni invested into your infantry. That would slow down 5 man Section spam and mean overall less muni to spam on other abilities, mines or grenades.

This is just the best suggestion so far.

No, just no.
You described the normal tech path of OKW. These are not costs that you need to sink into Obers AFTER you have already paid normal tech, this IS your normal tech.

If you try to do calculations, at least try to do them reasonably and comparably. And also check your OKW numbers because they are horribly far off.

you can calc like this..yes,,,but this isn a realistic calc for the ingame. ingame its actually pretty normal to get 4 sections. and its normal to get 1-2 obers. so lets be near to the realistic scenario. and than u dont pay all this upgrades only for one section. u pay it for mostly 3 or 4 or even more. but obers? how many of them you have at the same time? mostly only 2. so my calc is more realistic and than all other "calculations"

you can calc like this..yes,,,but this isn a realistic calc for the ingame. ingame its actually pretty normal to get 4 sections. and its normal to get 1-2 obers. so lets be near to the realistic scenario. and than u dont pay all this upgrades only for one section. u pay it for mostly 3 or 4 or even more. but obers? how many of them you have at the same time? mostly only 2. so my calc is more realistic and than all other "calculations"

No, your calculation is - at best - naively misrepresenting the actual game.

The only way your calculation were correct is if you paid all these resources just to get Obersoldaten with LMGs. But you do not. These resources get you to that point, but they also get you teching to all tanks that OKW can get.

If you really want to insist on your calcs and move all the costs to Obersoldaten, then OKW would also pay only the 350 MP / 140 FU for their medium (since all teching costs already have been allocated to Obersoldaten), while UKF still has to pay for their Cromwell PLUS their whole teching costs (somewhere around 265 FU if I am not mistaken). Now explain to me why my Cromwell costs almost twice the amount of fuel while it is shittier in almost every regard? Why do I as UKF pay fuel in the range of a heavy tank for a medium?

See, this is the same argument you (and also Katitof) are using for Obersoldaten and IS. They are all strawmen arguments and completely miss the point of the whole discussion.

The only point you can make with "adding" all the tech costs to Obersoldaten is that they come way later than infantry sections. But you did not. Not a single time.

Reduce 4 men population to 6 will be balance