Stock recon planes passes

Currently USF and UKF have access to stock reckon planes from officers.

The UKF officer is a single pass plane and the user can decide both the flight path and direction.

The USF major can also call in planes. It is a little bit more difficult to choose flight since the plane originate from and fly towards the selected point and one can not choose direction. On the other hand by vet 1 he call an addition plane that flies from enemy base toward the point.

That make both abilities able to provide sight even near the enemy base providing useful information like truck placement, tech choices and even allow to call-in off map.

Since these planes can originate from enemy base it is difficult to shoot down before they provide that information.

Imo these stock option should be looked at.

Planes coming from behind enemy lanes are more of an issue, the one that come from the own base are fine. But then again they are quite expensive for what they offer, so they are not spammable. Especially compared to recon loiters that will provide vision on a large area for long times.
I'd say it's an issue, but rather low priority. Other recon options like offmap flares should be fixed first if time is scarce

Planes coming from behind enemy lanes are more of an issue, the one that come from the own base are fine. But then again they are quite expensive for what they offer, so they are not spammable. Especially compared to recon loiters that will provide vision on a large area for long times.
I'd say it's an issue, but rather low priority. Other recon options like offmap flares should be fixed first if time is scarce

Actually I would argue that this is a higher priority issue than doctrinal flares since it involves stock abilities that are available in every game and not only a specific commander is chosen in team games and his teammate has access to off maps.

Actually I would argue that this is a higher priority issue than doctrinal flares since it involves stock abilities that are available in every game and not only a specific commander is chosen in team games and his teammate has access to off maps.

I disagree on that.
Royal arty commander is absolute meta especially in team games and Spec Ops is also played very often. OKW can easily combine it with rocket artillery as well, USF and UKF cannot. For team games it takes a lot of coordination because the passes happen quite quickly.

I have to say that I rarely see those recon plane passes, probably mostly because the UKF officer is often not build and many people think that you need to walk close to the point which you want to recon with both officers, since the range and the whole visual information of this abilities suggest so.
But maybe this is very rank and game mode specific. As I said, I rarely encounter these stock recon planes. The only time I see them is when I use them myself.

Usf already in poor place if we talk about non doc reckon options especially when u pick whole cpt tier

Due to how the game works, single pass planes are not designed to be countered in a realistic fashion.

This applies to recon, bomb, resource. smoke and strafe planes. If you have issues with one, you should have problems with all of them.

Also, as far as i'm aware, this still applies in the game.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/83547/vision-offmap-planes

Due to how the game works, single pass planes are not designed to be countered in a realistic fashion.

Then planes that start from enemy base should either be available to all factions as stock or to none.

This applies to recon, bomb, resource. smoke and strafe planes. If you have issues with one, you should have problems with all of them.

Also, as far as i'm aware, this still applies in the game.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/83547/vision-offmap-planes

I have explained clearly what the issue is imo, so the "all or nothing" theory does not apply here.

Then planes that start from enemy base should either be available to all factions as stock or to none.


I have explained clearly what the issue is imo, so the "all or nothing" theory does not apply here.

It's not clear.

Since these planes can originate from enemy base it is difficult to shoot down before they provide that information

You have issues that certain factions have access to tools that other factions get doctrinaly.


If you have problems that UKF and USF have access to this tools, then there's nothing else to discuss.
If you have problems with how vision works or single plane pass feel free to quote and keep the conversation going.

It's not clear.


You have issues that certain factions have access to tools that other factions get doctrinaly.


If you have problems that UKF and USF have access to this tools, then there's nothing else to discuss.
If you have problems with how vision works or single plane pass feel free to quote and keep the conversation going.

Tow faction having access to stock abilities that allows them to use off map near enemy base with little to no counter is imo an issue.

This is a separate issue to how planes work in general.

Tow faction having access to stock abilities that allows them to use off map near enemy base with little to no counter is imo an issue.

This is a separate issue to how planes work in general.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

USF has no non doctrinal rocket arty or heavy static arty, and the doctrinal ones are mediocre at best (next to soviets, it's good that USF is arty weak so it forces synergies). UKF also has non doctrinal arty and it's got arty flares thrown by infantry sections which need to get close to throw them (suppression can stop that easily). There is your balance. OKW has Stuka and OST has werfers which opens up a lot of possibilities to destroy the front line before advancing. Even more so since that arty is quite mobilel (weak but mobile) -> allowing it to get closer, barrage, get out. And a final argument why every recon ability should be stock plane flyby is the fact that the planes flyby quite fast, forcing you to pay attention and follow them and the only good info you get is the location of forward base. Flares are the strongest recon, followed by loiter planes that scout one area for a given amount of time (that's why you need to invest in AA, to nullify those planes), followed last by recon-pass planes. Sander, even though that post is filled with bad suggestions, made one brilliant suggestion. Make flares extend vision for infantry around them, as opposed to giving unobstructed vision.

So in my opinion the recon possibilities in this game should be:
A) Flares that give extra sight (obstructed sight, so buildings would still block the extra sight) to units that are in some AOE radius of those flares (0 counter but also not as strong as current flares)
B) Loiters that fly over one AOE (AA counters it)
C) Recon flyby (recon counters it but a bit harder than loiters since it's one pass)

Which faction/commander should have which is beyond me and is suited for somebody that plays all factions equally (equally being the important thing, not 1000 axis games and 100 allies or the other way around)

USF has no non doctrinal rocket arty or heavy static arty, ...

All this is irrelevant, stock reckon option that reveal enemy rear with little to no counter play is simply not justified.

Tow faction having access to stock abilities that allows them to use off map near enemy base with little to no counter is imo an issue.

This is a separate issue to how planes work in general.

Ignoring all the tools they do NOT have access to, which are considered basics that vanila factions have....

All this is irrelevant, stock reckon option that reveal enemy rear with little to no counter play is simply not justified.

It could not be more relevant.

USF and UKF have recon options they are unable to exploit without specific doctrine.
Sov and ost have arty options that work better with scout planes around.
OKW has OP stuka that doesn't need anything as its unaffected by FoW scatter or distance and 80 sight range stock unit.

So what that USF and UKF knows you have something in the back, when they have absolutely nothing to reach it?

Don't even attempt bringing out team games here, because building synergies is everything there.


Just admit it already, you have lost a game because one of these recons spotted something and their allies destroyed it, hence the thread.

All this is irrelevant, stock reckon option that reveal enemy rear with little to no counter play is simply not justified.

Plenty of my AA planes getting shut down after vet0 major called them in says otherwise.
Fun story (lost that game but not because of that, that was just the ice topping on the cake):
Ostwind shut down my plane around the middle of the map and that plane fell on 2 pak howits behind bushes (left side whiteball bottom) and 2 squads of retreating infantry that was running past them to a forward retreat major. Talk about luck.

And now to address your argument about revealing enemy rear.
Let's do a little rundown:
- You know where the enemy base is. You do not know where the forward base is (if there is any).
- Recon-pass plane (USF let's say since I'm most proficient with USF) will reveal (for a very short amount of time) the position of the enemy base IFF (if and only if), the map is elongated (eg. redball, whiteball) due to the recon plane having a certain AOE vision radius.
- In that short amount of time you can call in offmap IFF your doctrine has it or you discuss it with your teammate (as you can see, we are talking about teamgames) that has offmap.

So far we have a 50 muni ability that does something. That something is a quick flyby revealing forward positions for a short amount of time (impossible to scout the whole map as the plane passes, unless you're some savant). That short amount of time can be combined with some other abilities by your allies and have cost [50,300+] munitions altogether (all allies that decide to drop 600 worth of munitions on schwerer or something).

So now we have some general notion of what recon planes are about ==> quick flyby to give a general sense of enemy whereabouts.

To pull it off you need to drop all you're doing, focus on the plane and really pay attention and be fast with the fingers to call in anything offmap before the vision is lost. Or if it's a 2nd flyby where you know the position and you just wait for the vision to call in.

Counter? AA. I've had games where ostwind failed to shut it down but most of the time the plane does get shut down. I've had times where top MG gunners managed to shut it down.

And to address your argument that revealing the enemy rear is important? What can you learn about your enemy by looking at his base for a couple of seconds? You can maybe spot LeFH (which you can also when it's firing from fog of war). You could spot tanks getting repaired which you can deduce if you've had combat and damaged them. Infantry? Duuuh.
What is so important about enemy base that you need to make a pointless thread discussing the OPness of stock recon planes.

There is a thread that's justified about Brit and OKW flares being cheesy (0 counterplay as opposed to little to no), and it's a well thought out thread.

Are you making threads just for the sake of making threads and creating pointless debates with arguments weaker than M.N. Shyamalan's Avatar just so you could be heard or something?

You do know that typing "all this is irrelevant" when making a debate is the sign of wholehearted incompetence and bias? Point out why all that is irrelevant and I'll gladly accept if the argument is sound. Convince me that stock planes are OP. I've had my belief/view challenged many times throughout my studies and scientific/philosophical debates with friends and foes alike. Convince me and I'll gladly accept it.


EDIT: about the "reveal enemy rear". I'd argue that revealing the frontline is much more important due to the position of enemy MGs, ATs, etc. which is the direct "OPness" of flares (discussed in another thread). Unless I am missing something important about the enemy "rear", frontline reveal is indispensable when it comes to pushes and clearing out any enemy encampments (where any recon + stuka shines brilliantly) beforehand.

Show Spoiler

Saying that USF/UKf need stock reckon option with no counter because they do not have rocket artillery is beyond apples and oranges, it is simply trolling.

If you have trouble understanding why I am sorry but I can not help you.

Just admit it already, you have lost a game because one of these recons spotted something and their allies destroyed it, hence the thread.

And here we go again. Why don't simply admit that you addicted in personally attacking me.

Plenty of my AA planes getting shut down after vet0 major called them in says otherwise.
Fun story (lost that game but not because of that, that was just the ice topping on the cake):
Ostwind shut down my plane around the middle of the map and that plane fell on 2 pak howits behind bushes (left side whiteball bottom) and 2 squads of retreating infantry that was running past them to a forward retreat major. Talk about luck.

Now read more OP more carefully, the problem comes from second major planes that comes from the direction of enemy base and provides enough info before it can be shut down.

And now to address your argument about revealing enemy rear.
Let's do a little rundown:
- You know where the enemy base is. You do not know where the forward base is (if there is any).
- Recon-pass plane (USF let's say since I'm most proficient with USF) will reveal (for a very short amount of time) the position of the enemy base IFF (if and only if), the map is elongated (eg. redball, whiteball) due to the recon plane having a certain AOE vision radius.
- In that short amount of time you can call in offmap IFF your doctrine has it or you discuss it with your teammate (as you can see, we are talking about teamgames) that has offmap.

So far we have a 50 muni ability that does something. That something is a quick flyby revealing forward positions for a short amount of time (impossible to scout the whole map as the plane passes, unless you're some savant). That short amount of time can be combined with some other abilities by your allies and have cost [50,300+] munitions altogether (all allies that decide to drop 600 worth of munitions on schwerer or something).

So now we have some general notion of what recon planes are about ==> quick flyby to give a general sense of enemy whereabouts.

To pull it off you need to drop all you're doing, focus on the plane and really pay attention and be fast with the fingers to call in anything offmap before the vision is lost. Or if it's a 2nd flyby where you know the position and you just wait for the vision to call in.

Counter? AA. I've had games where ostwind failed to shut it down but most of the time the plane does get shut down. I've had times where top MG gunners managed to shut it down.

And to address your argument that revealing the enemy rear is important? What can you learn about your enemy by looking at his base for a couple of seconds? You can maybe spot LeFH (which you can also when it's firing from fog of war). You could spot tanks getting repaired which you can deduce if you've had combat and damaged them. Infantry? Duuuh.
What is so important about enemy base that you need to make a pointless thread discussing the OPness of stock recon planes.

There is a thread that's justified about Brit and OKW flares being cheesy (0 counterplay as opposed to little to no), and it's a well thought out thread.

Are you making threads just for the sake of making threads and creating pointless debates with arguments weaker than M.N. Shyamalan's Avatar just so you could be heard or something?

You do know that typing "all this is irrelevant" when making a debate is the sign of wholehearted incompetence and bias? Point out why all that is irrelevant and I'll gladly accept if the argument is sound. Convince me that stock planes are OP. I've had my belief/view challenged many times throughout my studies and scientific/philosophical debates with friends and foes alike. Convince me and I'll gladly accept it.


EDIT: about the "reveal enemy rear". I'd argue that revealing the frontline is much more important due to the position of enemy MGs, ATs, etc. which is the direct "OPness" of flares (discussed in another thread). Unless I am missing something important about the enemy "rear", frontline reveal is indispensable when it comes to pushes and clearing out any enemy encampments (where any recon + stuka shines brilliantly) beforehand.

Do I really need to explain why vision near enemy base is advantage that should not be available stock?

USF has no non doctrinal rocket arty or heavy static arty, and the doctrinal ones are mediocre at best (next to soviets, it's good that USF is arty weak so it forces synergies). UKF also has non doctrinal arty and it's got arty flares thrown by infantry sections which need to get close to throw them (suppression can stop that easily). There is your balance. OKW has Stuka and OST has werfers which opens up a lot of possibilities to destroy the front line before advancing. Even more so since that arty is quite mobilel (weak but mobile) -> allowing it to get closer, barrage, get out. And a final argument why every recon ability should be stock plane flyby is the fact that the planes flyby quite fast, forcing you to pay attention and follow them and the only good info you get is the location of forward base. Flares are the strongest recon, followed by loiter planes that scout one area for a given amount of time (that's why you need to invest in AA, to nullify those planes), followed last by recon-pass planes. Sander, even though that post is filled with bad suggestions, made one brilliant suggestion. Make flares extend vision for infantry around them, as opposed to giving unobstructed vision.

So in my opinion the recon possibilities in this game should be:
A) Flares that give extra sight (obstructed sight, so buildings would still block the extra sight) to units that are in some AOE radius of those flares (0 counter but also not as strong as current flares)
B) Loiters that fly over one AOE (AA counters it)
C) Recon flyby (recon counters it but a bit harder than loiters since it's one pass)

Which faction/commander should have which is beyond me and is suited for somebody that plays all factions equally (equally being the important thing, not 1000 axis games and 100 allies or the other way around)

I think I was the one who suggested flares should extend the vision for infantry around them?

I found it:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/97674/flare-rework-proposal

Right now, flares provide uncounterable vision, which is very powerful.

I propose that instead of the flares sighting units themselves, they grant a sight range bonus to all units in the flare’s radius.

This way, flares will no longer be able to grant uncounterable vision on back lines, while still providing bonus sight.

I think I was the one who suggested flares should extend the vision for infantry around them?

I found it:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/97674/flare-rework-proposal

True, you are completely right and in my opinion a great recommendation.

True, you are completely right and in my opinion a great recommendation.

Thanks! I’m glad you think my idea would be a good change